finding career zen
Stories and interviews highlighting the unique challenges, failures, and successes encountered on the path to achieving career zen.
finding career zen
At Work With Gen XYZ: Does Freelancing Suit All Generations?
Have you ever considered the generational distinctions when it comes to freelancing?
Check out Finding Career Zen's new episode segment: At Work With Gen XYZ, where Pete (Gen X), Peter (Gen Y), and Ashley (Gen Z) dissect the changing dynamics of the job market, analyzing the work preferences of the three generations. They also explore the appeal of remote work for millennials and the importance they place on pet benefits, alternative leaves, and, most importantly, mental health.
Let’s get real about the ties between healthcare and employment. This episode brings the spotlight on the complexities of employer-dependent benefits and the affordability of healthcare in the freelancing world. Freelancing might seem like a daunting prospect, especially for those accustomed to a traditional employment environment, but they're here to make sense of it all.
Finally, Gen X, Y, and Z embark on a journey into the future of freelancing, envisioning how Gen Alpha might adapt to this lifestyle differently from Gen Z. They talk about digital nomads, freelancing across international borders, and the changing concept of loyalty in the workforce. Is company loyalty a thing of the past? Can we find a balance between discipline and flexibility in a freelance lifestyle?
Tune in as they ponder over these questions, aiming to enlighten and engage in a conversation that goes beyond just work.
We're back again, our Thursday afternoon slot for At Work With Gen XYZ. Now, Peter, I was gonna introduce myself and say that I'm the Gen Xer, but you made fun of me last week for that, so I'll just say I'm Pete.
Peter :And I'm Peter there. See, there, we can just say who we are. We don't have to be defined by our generation.
Ashley:Well, I don't want people to think I'm the millennial. I'm Gen Z, I'm Ashley. I don't want to be the millennial.
Peter :When is the millennial cutoff? By the way, did we actually figure out? Like what is the age? Like if you were 28,? Are you a millennial?
Pete :Don't try to distance yourself, don't even ask that You're a solid millennial.
Peter :I'm a solid. What I'm saying is that, like Ashley, could she could be like a young millennial, Like when is the cutoff?
Ashley:No, I am like Haley's like the first, like our other marketing associate, haley, she's Gen Z like the beginning. My boyfriend I'm pretty sure he's like the peak, like middle between millennial and Gen Z, he's pretty sure he's yeah.
Peter :Like who decides these? Then? It's like, one year you're a millennial. Now you're a Gen Z, like everybody born this next year.
Pete :There's a little overlap. There's a little overlap.
Ashley:Someone said if I was born in 83, I'm a millennial question mark.
Peter :I think you're like the oldest millennial.
Pete :Yes, you are so welcome to the. Welcome to that club, peter. How would you describe the millennials, ashley? Because we haven't done this in a while. We sort of just let Peter and his generation off the hook until today.
Ashley:I'd say I mean just viewing my millennial sister. Sometimes you guys can act a little bit like Karen's. I feel like you guys can be pretty stubborn.
Peter :That's Gen Z, gen X too, though Is that just older people?
Ashley:People say older people. I feel like you guys started the whole technology thing, so you guys are all striving to be influencers or coming up with new social media platforms. I feel like we're-.
Pete :Okay, we established this in our first episode Millennials only get credit for the first kind of big social media platform, which was what Peter my space, my space, right, tom, but Tom's a Gen Xer.
Peter :Yeah, we looked that up. Yeah, I was wrong.
Pete :Yeah, I don't think at this point you don't get credit for anything. But that's not true. You guys get credit for the big ones of course.
Ashley:I mean bringing us to our topic for today. I feel like millennials are possibly more dependent to the traditional work life, whereas I feel like Gen Z is more independent, leading more to becoming freelancers, kind of thing.
Pete :Right, so let's kind of set the stage for that. The topic is about freelancing. It was a post that we talked a little bit about last week. I don't even remember where I originally saw it, but the point of it was that the Gen Y and Gen Z are driving the freelance movement, and I sort of thought that was a bad take, because lumping the millennials and Gen Z in together for that reason they were saying they wanted freedom and flexibility, and my point that I wanna start with today is that I don't think millennials are comfortable with freedom and flexibility. I think it's the dependent generation when it comes to employment and that so, while Gen X and Gen Z are more independent, Peter, I don't think Gen X is more independent, by the way.
Peter :Well, we'll get into this. Why are you the more independent? I would argue that Gen X and Gen Z-.
Pete :I'll tell you why I'm more independent because we came home to empty houses.
TikTok Video:We came home to parents who weren't there.
Pete :We had to fend for ourselves. We were allowed to. We grew up leaving the house at sunrise and coming home at sunset and no one having any idea whether we were dead or alive until we came home to the end.
Peter :The both parents working. So you're saying that like, so you had to fend for yourself? Yeah, a lot of people, millennials not also have two parents working. I mean, I remember coming home and being kind of on my own, so it's not curious.
Pete :Maybe they had two parents working, but that was in between calling the teachers to complain and showing up and asking coaches why their kids weren't getting more playing time.
Peter :The record doesn't be watching this. I don't know this is a stereotype here. I do not know any of my friends that had their parents calling to argue with teachers about this. This sounds like Pete is projecting his own thing onto me.
Pete :Watch Pete. So let's get away from that and we'll make it about work and why I say that. So here's a list I pulled up of some of the top perks that millennials look for in their employer. Now, I'm a huge fan of freelancing. You guys know that. We talk about it all the time. We talk about it on Zengig. I think it is a great way to work. I think it enhances the relationship. But the broken what I consider to be a largely broken relationship between employees and employers in a traditional sense, where employees have become too dependent on their employer for many things. But here's a list of the perks. We'll talk about that in more in a minute. Remote work right, that's the thing that many people are insisting on right now, but put that aside for the moment. That's a little bit caused, of course, by what happened with COVID fitness classes Fitness classes. So this is a list of top perks. It's on multiple sites. It's not my list, so don't make that face.
Peter :I'll let you get through it before I comment on it.
Pete :Pet benefits, pet benefits, alternative leave, alternative leave, right in particular, we've seen that. But student loan repayment, if flexible schedules, ok, that's common. And then mental health and well-being benefits, and there's others. But here's the point None of those have anything to do with the job. And when I think of freelancing the relationship between the person doing the work and the person paying for the work or group paying for work, whatever the case may be, it's relegated to the job at hand, not all these things that exist outside of work, and I think that has been a trend over the past. What 20 years, 15 years predominantly, where work has become so much more about these other things that have nothing to do with the job. So that's where I'm coming from with the dependency statement.
Peter :So I think that there's nothing more millennial I mean, that was a great list in terms of a Ken Capsule and that there's nothing more millennial than being told what millennials love doing. Millennials love having all these things. Millennials are killing this industry. Millennials are doing this. Millennials are doing that. Well, like no millennial I know is like yeah, I'm going to this job because they have a gym membership. So I'm curious to meet all of these so-called millennials that want all of these things. Now I would say the flexible work schedule sure, the student loan or payment that's kind of I would lump that in. That's they're paying for something for you. Sure, that's great. You could just pay me more money and then I could repay my own loans. But that would be. And the same thing with mental health. Like you know what's great for my mental health? Getting paid a lot.
Pete :So you know how to achieve those things. Pursue a freelance route.
Peter :Yeah, exactly, and the flexible schedule particularly is. I mean, that's probably one of the number one things why I think that you know that article that kind of spurred this is talking about like and, by the way, I think it lumped Gen Z and millennial together because it's like basically anyone like under 40, like the younger digital generations, because older generations that didn't have that, I guess the internet wasn't as big of a kind of force in their career.
Peter :They, you know freelancing is completely different in the early 90s versus you know now, when you can, you can be a freelancer at multiple different companies across the you know country almost instantaneously. So that's I'll kind of like lay that as my premise there. So I think that these the lists of things that millennials want, work-life balance and freelance is probably the one thing that I'll agree with. That's frequently talked about and I think that that's where the whole millennials are embracing freelance comes from, because you have to, you get, you get that. You get that more than you could ever in any of these other jobs.
Ashley:You do. And again I feel like like let's just say, peter, right now you know you're working your nine to five. What, like, if you were a freelancer, would you miss talking to your coworkers? Would you miss, kind of like, having that company life, cause I know, freelance isn't for everybody?
Peter :Yeah, no, yeah, I totally get that. And freelance is you're, you're working on your own, you're. You have to kind of look outside of your company to provide you with those things. Personally, me, no, I would not, because I have, you know, a nice social circle. I don't need to have to go elsewhere for that, but I can see where that that's an issue. During COVID I know that was a big thing is people feeling isolated and everything. I never personally felt that way, but I know that that was a big issue. I don't know, what do you? You're I mean, you're a young person too. So what do you do? You feel like if you were just on your own doing project after project, working late, maybe, you know, overnight because you had to do something during the day, would that be an issue for you, that you don't have that connection, that you don't have anybody to talk to?
Ashley:I mean I feel like with my generation we, you know, didn't come into the workforce starting off in like offices. We're all work from home. So it's already lonely for us. We know what the loneliness is like. So I feel like freelancing is kind of easier for us because we kind of became so autonomous, right, did I say that? Right?
Pete :Well, that's so. Let's go back to that, this idea of autonomy, where it's the opposite of what I'm calling a dependency on the perks and benefits provided by an employer. So things as simple as sick days, pto, holiday pay we're all used to that. Now, being in the contract staffing industry for a long time, contractors have you know the term freelancers used a lot. Now it's basically if you cut the middleman, the contract staffing company, out of the equation. I think that's usually when freelance is used more. But it's the same thing. It means that you're working not as a direct employee of an organization, you're a hired gun, you're project-based, you're hourly generally, even though you're in a professional role. In many cases it would historically be a salary position. So those terms are somewhat interchangeable, but with that there's a trade-off.
Pete :Now the federal government recently, a couple of years ago, stepped in and said contractors still need to be paid or still need to be offered major medical right. Now that's interesting to me because one of the reasons why people like being freelance or contract is because they were paid more, so that, as you mentioned earlier, peter, that rather than hand you medical benefits, those same dollars could go in your paycheck. Maybe you have a spouse who has great benefits. You don't need them on your own. Maybe things like holiday pay aren't really important to you. You don't like holidays, for whatever reason. Right, you're the gritch. You'd rather be paid more and have those dollars in your pocket.
Pete :And so what freelance does? It gives the power back to the individual right. So that's why I like it, it's why I'm a big fan. But with that comes a responsibility of autonomy and you have to be able to fend for yourself. You have to be able to succeed and operate without structure. So what do you guys think about that? I mean, do you think generationally and of course these are generalizations right, you guys aren't necessarily even typical for your generation. But do you think? How do you think that separation plays out right Between being used to your employer giving you all these things? You're not really giving them to you. It's part of your total comp, but now you have to figure it out on your own.
Peter :It's definitely. I mean listen, I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that that being conditioned to go to a job and have that all handled for you, even if something as simple as your W-2, like you've got an HR department that can help you with that and help you with your benefits. You're a contractor. You've got to do a 1099, you got to do your own taxes. You got to do a lot of stuff that you have to figure it out on your own, and that's hard, especially when you my generation we have baby boomers were our parents.
Peter :They always worked at a company they always got their benefits through a company. So that's what we knew growing up. It wasn't common for you to have learned about that type of stuff, that sort of, I guess, independence that we're talking about, from a young age. So it can be scary, it can be hard to. Like you said, you got to figure out your health insurance on your own. All this stuff that you have to go out, you have to research it, you have to get your own plan. You're not just here is 10 different plans that we offer and then you've got an HR manager that you can or a benefits manager that you can ask questions about.
Pete :Even that's confusing.
Peter :Yeah, exactly, it's confusing at working at a company and imagine you got to go shop the market on your own and then make that exponentially larger. So, yeah, there's comfort in just and working at a company that provides all that bundled together. So I don't think it's necessarily for everyone.
Pete :So look at this. So let's say someone opens a hot dog stand, a small business, and they get busy and they need an employee and they hire the employee to serve hot dogs, take cash, give proper change, whatever right, and suddenly the employer, this new hot dog stand owner, realizes they have to provide healthcare benefits. Now I would argue that the act of serving hot dogs to someone and being paid a wage to do it has absolutely nothing to do with healthcare and should not be the company that pays you to do that, should not be the source of your your well-being, your physical well-being, your healthcare paying you to serve hot dogs. That's it. That perspective is not necessarily widely shared and may or may not be popular, but if you think about and try to logically answer, why should an employer be in any way tied to healthcare for their employees? It makes no sense. The hot dog stand business has zero to do with healthcare.
Pete :I would contend that the hot dog business owner has no knowledge of healthcare at any intimate level, should not be involved in making those decisions for someone else. Right? They just want to sell hot dogs. Start adding all these other perks and benefits into it. It gets very confusing as to what the true nature of the relationship is. Freelance takes all that away and just says you're an adult, you're a professional, you figure out the stuff outside of work. As long as you are happy with the wage, I'm paying you for selling hot dogs. We're good, right? If you show up on time, you like doing it, you're happy with the wage, that's it. But we add all these other things into it that make it so complex.
Peter :You're not going to find any complaint for me that I think that healthcare should not be tied to an employer, but I think it's the cost and the complexity, which we could have an entire episode on, where we talk about that. I think that it should be separated. It should not be tied to your job. You should not have to worry about I'm stuck at this job because my health insurance is tied to this job, and why not?
Pete :Let's make it even more right. I'll stop talking and then, ashley, you could weigh in. Hot dog stand owner needs someone to serve hot dogs and then is told they have to pay the person when they're not selling hot dogs for them. Now, make that make sense. Now you could argue if they want to be competitive and have that employee not work for the hot dog stand across the street. All those things right. But a lot of these things have become expected and freelance again takes all of that off the table. So, ashley, does that make you uncomfortable, the thought of having to figure all that out on your own?
Ashley:I mean, I guess my take on it is it would be an adjustment to have to try and figure it out. I did have to help my dad figure it out because he's like his own little freelance truck driver, so no one's paying for his health care, he's figuring it out on his own. I do have to say, the only thing I think is health care can be expensive. So if I'm like a hot dog person, I'm like selling hot dogs and I guess I'm not getting paid that much and then I can't afford health care. I guess that's the only downside of it. If I'm getting paid enough to where I guess I'm going to be able to afford the health care, then I feel like I would be more comfortable in just doing it my own.
Pete :Yeah, it gets conflated where the affordability of health care comes into play. Right and that. But again I would say how does the hot dog stand on? It's not that person's job to solve that, right. They're just trying to sell hot dogs because that's their dream and that's what they want to do, and they know how to make them, I don't know. But once we start putting all these extra things in, when I was an employee I felt like this wait a minute. I don't want those perks, necessarily. I don't want you paying for things that I don't use. I'd rather those dollars be in my pocket. So for that reason, I'm a huge fan of freelancing. Again, I think it's a much healthier relationship ultimately where all these other things don't get brought in into the conversation.
Peter :I think if it became a bigger and it's right now freelancing is not as huge of a portion of the market as it potentially could be or will be in the future, I think. So that's where, when it's just a handful of freelancers looking for health insurance, they don't really have as much bargaining power. I mean, that's why giant corporations are able to get really good health insurance, because they have bargaining power, whereas hot dog stand might not have. That's a very real thing. Hot dog corp might be able to, but a small. So I feel like freelancers are in that boat, but as they become bigger and bigger, I hope that those options become streamline, more efficient, more cheaper. I don't know what the future holds, I guess.
Ashley:I mean, you also know where applying. If you see that they're not offering healthcare as a perk and you don't mind that, you don't mind setting it up for yourself and you still apply, then that works. I mean, I worked at a bagel bakery. They didn't offer me healthcare. I knew it and I was fine with it and I figured it out on my own. So I guess it also depends all on that.
Peter :Well, you being super young when you're worked at the bagel bakery and not health insurance being not as important to you, is not the same as I think like a 40-year-old with a family that has kids and whatnot. But I think that point and along with the other ones it's becoming people are talking about it, especially millennials, gen Z, and I think that websites like Guru or Upwork have made it a lot like that was. The barrier was finding clients. I know how to design a web page Now how do I find people Like do I put a flyer up in the park Like? Now there's websites where you can just go post your services and it makes it a lot easier to have that relationship, to build your personal brand, so to speak.
Pete :All right, so this is all topic. Actually, I'm going to let you drive the bus after this, but I want to ask. Affordable Care Act, obama Cares, it was commonly known. Basically, the federal government said individuals have to have health care. Right, if you're an employee, you need to take the employer's health care plan. You could be penalized, you could pay a fee if you don't, and I think they waived that now. Finally, I mean, some common sense took over, but also required employers to do it, whether the employee wanted it or not. And, being in contract staffing, it really made our industry scramble, because that's not historically what's been done. And then, of course, everyone's seen the lawsuits in California with Uber, where the state has said you have to do these things. No one's complaining. I mean, everyone who's an Uber driver willingly takes a job under the conditions if they don't have to. Uber operates the way they do without needing any government intervention. Do you guys think, being younger, that government should weigh in on that stuff?
Peter :I think it was done with good intentions of it, but I think that there's a lot of nuance in it that is probably overlooked. I probably would say that I don't think it should be a requirement. I mean, I'm kind of in the camp of where we are right now. I think California is a little extreme on that side. That's just my personal opinion. So I'd probably shift more to the side of letting it be in the hand, like out of the forcing camp, to letting it kind of if you don't like the job that doesn't offer it, go find a different job.
Ashley:Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
Pete :I don't want to and I would bring it up because freelance market's growing rapidly and all the projections are huge, whether generationally everyone's suited for it or not. We'll get back to that, but I am concerned that the federal government could come in and try to put a stop to a lot of it at some point by putting requirements in place.
Peter :How do you think that's going to? I mean, I guess this is kind of going off on another tangent. So if freelance, if freelance is growing, which assumes that people aren't necessarily tied to a location, in a lot of places, if you moved to Canada and you're in Canada and you are working for a US company, are you still held to those kind of rules? Like? I can only see that becoming bigger and bigger as the internet becomes more powerful, remote work becomes more commonplace, even more than it already is, and then if you're not even tied to, it's the same schedule. You're just a project. Do this Like you can live in a completely different state, a different country, and work on this and get paid.
Pete :Well, I think the government's interest. There is a tax issue. They want to collect the taxes from their citizens, regardless of where they work. But you're right, that's right now. The technology exists, right, the market exists to have a global economy where we could hire anywhere, anytime, for any job. That's remote, that's coming, but governments will probably not be huge fans of that. Okay, let's get away from the political topic.
Ashley:I do have a video to show to kind of gear back to millennials being dependent.
Peter :Okay, I forgot, that was the topic.
Ashley:Let's bring it up.
Peter :Okay, let me start it over by the way I watched this, Leaving my nine to five to become a Freelance.
TikTok Video:What'd you say, Peter?
Peter :I said I watched this one and she's talking about why it's great. So point for me, point against your dependence.
TikTok Video:All right, I understand. Leaving my nine to five to become a Freelancer was life changing. I had dreamt of being my own boss since I was a kid. And then, one cold January morning, I woke up and it was a reality.
Pete :Is it just beer, or does she sound angry? She does not sound happy with whatever is going on.
Ashley:I feel like she just sounds sad, like there's something, like she's missing.
Peter :It's the moody music in the background.
Pete :I mean the millennial dream, and she's like rolling out with this depressed tone, but okay, Like the millennial dream is not that it, but you know that saying old habits die hard Shit.
TikTok Video:Ain't that the truth? The day I started my Freelance work, I still logged on at 9 am. I still made sure to respond to my emails immediately. I still stayed active online for eight hours because I couldn't have my new client see me offline. A part of me knew I owned my own schedule, while the other part refused to believe it. But who could blame me? I'd been conditioned to be available to people 40 hours a week my entire life. It was how I proved my value. But I was a Freelancer. Now I am free right. If I got my work done in two hours, then I was done. My contract with these clients didn't require me to stay online and look busy just to prove I wasn't wasting their money.
Pete :Okay that's way too whiny, let's just torture. So I see that and think this is someone who is just blaming everyone else, blaming their employer I'm supposed to look busy. Stay online just to satisfy someone else Like who?
Peter :It's funny because she actually is talking like it's the. What she's actually saying is that she has more freedom, but she's just saying it like the most, like depressed.
Ashley:Well, I, how I reciprocate. This is like, okay, she's a freelancer now but she was conditioned to the nine to five life. She's like it's hard to go from nine to five to freelance. So she's trying to figure it out and it's kind of like I don't know, making her sad she misses her co-workers.
Peter :Now A lot of people are I mean I I have never encountered this, but I have seen, like where you know that like your manager checks if you're online, it's. I guess it's a thing with remote work, like you need to be, like you're active at your computer all the time. That seems like micromanaging to me, but that's a whole other story. So I guess I could see if people, if you're used to that, you're used to being tied to your computer and your manager constantly checking to make sure that you're sitting there and Not in the bathroom or whatever, like yeah, I guess it can be a, it can be a culture shock you know, I mean, it's not even that you're conditioned to wake up at nine o'clock, clock out at five and then all of a sudden, you, the schedule is in your hands, like you're no longer clocking in and you have to figure out everything on your own.
Ashley:And maybe she's like oh, I miss you know that the easiness of having the clock in Versus having to do it myself.
Peter :I think that's a good thing. By the way, be conditioned. If you're like, keep that schedule, wake up in the morning, even if you're not necessarily working on your, whatever you're doing for your clients, like stay active, like that's good, you should wake, you should have a, you should wake up and you should do stuff.
Ashley:And but then I mean sometimes people even work Even later than they're supposed to, just because I mean they say you have to work for client, you can wake up in the morning and I don't know, get the house chores done before you start working for your client.
Peter :I think that that's a actually a good thing to be conditioned and you know maintain that, that self-discipline, because you know we saw like it when people went remote, like that was a hard thing and I know Pete's told several stories over the years of her up People that had that you know trouble of it's not freelance but like going from a corporate office to more freedom of working remote. You know how they did not that discipline to like sit down and do your work.
Pete :You know yeah, when I, prior to starting a four corner, I worked for a big company and they closed all their remote sales offices and a lot of people I was young Relatively at the time and a lot of people who were probably close to my age now had always worked in an office, always had a manager looking over their shoulder, knew when they were coming in and out, even though they were professional sales people.
Pete :There is just, it was just different then. They were on their own and it's like they lost their minds. It was like when people go to Vegas for a convention, they just do things they shouldn't do, and these people just started taking full advantage of that freedom and ended up losing their jobs as a result of it, because they just Were used to structure and the structure was gone and they didn't know how to thrive and operate. Because because, if you think about it, it, while the freelance Flexibility sounds great, you're on your own and when there's no one to tell you what to do, you really do have to have discipline in a way that not everyone does that's kind of you know, so that's interesting.
Peter :Do you think that like in a normal, in a different, alternate world like that, it might be a harder change for millennials and Gen Z to go into the freelance? But do you think that kind of COVID in the force of remote like is almost like a soft opening in a restaurant, like it's sort of primed a lot of people to be like alright, I'm, I'm not all the way there, but I'm a lot more, you know, independent than I used to be. I'm not used to that Well.
Pete :I'm in. Okay, so I, because we talk about this a lot and I think it's important for people to acknowledge whether they're someone who needs structure or whether they can operate autonomously. And my career history and everything I've witnessed and observed firsthand tells me You're one or the other. And if you're someone who needs structure, you're going to struggle mightily in a remote situation and because Everyone is incorrect who thinks that you're starting a business, which is what freelancing is. Right, solopreneur, if you want to call it back, but when you go out on your own, the, you have significantly more pressure than when you're an employee. Yes, it's a different kind of pressure. You don't have to satisfy anyone but yourself.
Pete :But when no one's looking, it's sort of like you're eating well, exercising, getting up in the morning early yes, we all know those are things we should do, but who doesn't right? Who? Who says no to the cookie? Who goes to the gym at five in the morning? Versus not right? And then people say, well, I need to hire a trainer if the trainers there and I'm paying someone. Well, that's like being an employee. Yeah, if you have, you know, a manager who's going hey, where are you? You're, you'll be there and I just think it's. It is such an individual thing, not bad or better or worse, just different. Well, person next.
Peter :I think Ashley mentioned earlier Gen Z. I mean they, most of them started their professional career during a crazy remote time, so maybe that's Affected their ability to like be even more predisposed to freelance and working. You know, weird hours and doing stuff like that, like Whereas Millennials half of them, like we're used.
Pete :You know, we worked in an office, we were used to that structure, so it was you know not everyone can get used to not having someone look over your shoulder 100% and and I think that's a great observation, because Gen Z now I Say kids come out of school and I am the Gen X, so I can say that but that you can live anywhere in the world, ashley, you can live anywhere and do your job. I think that is Incredibly cool. I'm envious of that. I'm tied to, yeah, my house kids. I can't do that. I never had that opportunity. What? But what I find interesting is that they don't take advantage of it either. Largely so. You're actually, you're still, you know you're not. You're not In Taiwan, you're here in Florida, all the you know young people I know in a similar situation that they're not, they're not roaming the world as digital nomads. So it's the potential for that is there, peter, but I don't know why generationally it really hasn't taken effect.
Peter :I think that's just like human nature, like unknown is scary, like not everybody it wants to be.
Ashley:Like going all over the place, people like their cozy house, that they like know you know like trust me, I wish I could move to Portugal right now for like a year and like do what I'm doing now. But I feel like like let's just say, if I was Zen gigs marketing associate and I moved to Portugal for like a couple months to be a digital nomad, the hours would be like flopped.
Pete :I'd have to wake up at like midnight and then I know it's what an incredible opportunity and and thing to do in your life, right? And the other thing I've observed over the years Having worked with a lot of people from other countries is that that's an American thing generally, like we, we don't do that. Where people from Latin America do a people from Europe, they move a whole lot more than we do and are willing to bounce from one country to the next. I think it's unfortunate that we don't.
Peter :I don't know how that Knives, though it's like. That's like comparing, saying like we're in Florida so I'm working from Georgia today, like that's the same as like France and Germany.
Ashley:I think it's also like stability. I will say I mean it is nice, thinking like okay, like if I don't want to live in Florida anymore, if I'm getting tired of Florida, I could just pick up and move to Texas, move to New Jersey. I can move wherever I want to. So I think it's amazing how I could still have this job and Go buy a house in a different state and go live my life there for a little bit. I mean Just the comforting of being where you are right now. I guess it's just I wonder if we'll see.
TikTok Video:You know, do you think you'll see so?
Peter :in 10 years from now, do you think you're gonna see more or less that with as what's the, what's the next generation alpha, as they become, you know, start to become, you think they're gonna be even more so, like you know, I think they're gonna be terrified to leave the house from all the stuff they see in the news.
Pete :That's.
TikTok Video:I mean think about these are?
Pete :these kids were forced to wear masks at an elementary school.
TikTok Video:What do you think that's?
Pete :that's a psyche, yeah that's a good right. They've been taught the world scary where that's again. I know you know COVID hit all around the world and countries handle it differently, but I think that's I hope that's not just an American thing, because we're going to be worse off as a result of it.
Peter :Yeah, that's true, because you're too young. Are they considered? Are they still Gen Z or what are they? I guess they're Gen Alpha, right, the next one.
Pete :Yeah, yeah.
Ashley:I actually feel like they're going to be more digital, like no mads than Gen Z, because I don't know, I've seen a lot of. I see this trend picking up on TikTok where everyone's like leave your nine to five, like go travel, go see the world, go do things that you can finally do, have that work-life balance, and I feel like maybe the next generation is going to take that more seriously and make that push that.
Peter :So you think it's going to continue even more into it. I think that millennials are probably about as like. They're embracing it for sure, and I think that it'll grow, but I don't think it's going to grow exponentially.
Ashley:I don't think it's going to be rapid. No, I don't think it's going to be like rapid, but do I think it's going to like happen?
Pete :Freelance.
Ashley:Yeah, freelance and just traveling and.
Pete :Yeah, I don't know about travel, but globally and in the US freelance numbers are growing rapidly.
Pete :And. But, peter, back to the point you brought up earlier. It is interesting if all these, if there's a system to pay people in other countries right To do the same work that you could pay for here and that's been happening for a long time already but not at the company level, but at the individual level, where there's so many opportunities for people to connect globally different kind of payment systems that exist things like Bitcoin, where you could pay someone out you take it completely outside of what the government wants you to do. I hope Americans become more open to that, because it's going to make it really hard to be competitive. Otherwise, again, I'm always coming from the perspective of why does the employee-employee relationship depend on all these things that have nothing to do with work? It doesn't make sense to me.
Peter :I think it's just because it's always been that way and it's like familiarity. I think that's what it boils down to familiarity, and it's always been that way. So that's why no one's pushing it. They're like sure it should be a more medium.
Pete :That hasn't changed and evolved, even though technology has changed and evolved significantly, and that traditional way of working is. It's shrinking. That we know. The numbers indicate that it's shrinking. So, ashley, are we ready for another video?
Ashley:Yes, so this one is basically like nine to five versus freelancer. Which is better? So we can continue our argument here.
TikTok Video:Okay, the nine to five model is quite broken in 2020. Tim Ferriss wrote the four hour work week in like 2005 or something. Yeah, and that's still so relevant today. It's crazy, and I think the contractor and the freelance model can work if people are smart, cause you've got to understand when you're a contractor and you're freelancing, you don't get holidays, you don't get sick days, you get paid more money, but if you spend more money, then you're going to be really in a lot of trouble and you've got no security. So people like fantasizing about being a freelancer and stuff, and it's good if you're smart with your money, but there's a lot of downsides to it as well it's freedom, with the cost, the nine to five model Oops freedom with the cost.
Pete :Did he say his parents read the four hour work week? Is that what he said? I have a copy of it.
Peter :2004 was ahead of its time. I'm like what 2004? That was like two years ago, right.
Pete :But I think my copy of it's right there. It's really old, but no, I mean that was my introduction to a different way to work and a different way of looking at again I continue to say the traditional relationship that has so many flaws to it.
Peter :I thought it's interesting that.
Pete :I mean they basically said what we're saying, it's you know that you don't have that safety net, which I think is why people is scary to people.
Peter :They're like I got to do it on my own.
Ashley:Yeah, like freedom with the cost, like that's literally it. Like you can have your freedom but you might not have job security and everything else that comes along with it. But you know this, so it's your choice.
Pete :So so Bella made this comment, which I think is really sums up a lot of what we're talking about Whether you're freelance or an employee, you have to be disciplined to work autonomously. I wonder what would you guys say? Is it like? What percentage of people, if you subscribe to what I believe, which is you either are suited for that or you're not? What do you think the split is?
Peter :Are self-disciplined enough to succeed in it. So I think I think it would say maybe a third are self-disciplined enough to like, do fine. A third are, like, self-disciplined enough because, that's say, it's degrees are self-disciplined enough to get along but they're not gonna like excel. And then there's a third who absolutely can't do it. I would break it down to thirds.
Ashley:I feel like it's also gonna change because again, gen Z, like a lot of us, are just working remote, so we're learning to be successful through this environment, not through working in an office. I feel like that percentage could change.
Pete :Do you think that your generation's gonna be worse off professionally you're not gonna evolve as fast because of that or do you think it may benefit you ultimately?
Ashley:I think we've talked about this before. My opinion on that is I think we're gonna benefit from it because we have all this technology right in front of us. So like if I wanted to do an educational class and we have like AI now, like I feel like there's just so much more opportunities being home and like it's not that you can't still develop and learn from other coworkers. You can still zoom. You have like Slack now and other like things where you can communicate with each other and call each other with the click of a button. If anything, it might be easily accessible to access coworkers and ask them for help now, versus than it was like in the office. Like Pete, for example, I can message you something on Slack and I know you'll get to me like quick, versus if I was working in an office with you. I feel like it would be harder because I'd have to knock on your office door and you might not be there, like that whole ordeal.
Pete :That's interesting perspective. People need to just walk into my office.
Peter :So I feel like that was. It's the opposite for me. Like I mean, people call me on Slack and I always get the notifications, but I would always, I would have people just straight up walk into my office. I'd be like doing something like hello, can I help you?
Pete :I would tell you that benefit is lesser than the benefit of having so many people around you that you could just turn and talk to your peers. And yes, you can do that. But it has to be planned and it has. You have to take action. It doesn't just happen naturally, because you're going to lunch with people every day, you're seeing them in the hallway, you sit next to them. So I do worry that you guys are missing out on an important part of professional evolution. That just happens by being around like-minded people, people who are seeing you're more knowledgeable because, while you have quick access, it's just not as frequent.
Peter :The mentorship angles. That's totally valuable. I would say, like you know, you say you're a software developer and you're working and not even necessarily same office but same buildings as somebody who's a senior software developer, who's got 10 more years experience yeah, you see them at lunch, you go. You, maybe you go to lunch, maybe you get along with each other. You bring up a problem Like that just on the fly type of thing, as opposed to having to. I got a schedule mentor time where I sit down and think of all my maybe I don't remember all my questions, but if it's on the fly and like I can't figure this thing out, I talk to somebody who's been doing it for 10 years. Maybe they, you know, they give me those little things. I can see that being something that's missed out for people who've never worked in that environment. So I'll concede that point for sure.
Pete :Yeah, I'm trying to relate it to my own evolution, but I say I'm envious of you guys. I've learned so much from so many people and really, Ashley, like you, don't get to interact with people in different departments, different positions, like you would. You barely know them. If we're being completely transparent about that, you know them but you don't interact with them very often, and when you do, it has to be planned and forced, but it's not the same. You don't develop the same bonds and friendships that matter. All right, so you want to.
Pete :Let's talk about a couple of comments here. I mean, Stacey said that we should first start freelancing, so doing it a long time, she commented earlier, a rate was higher than the corporate job. I had my pay deposited to accounts. The second account was savings for PTO holidays. So that and I love that statement because that's something in contract staffing I've encountered for a long time where a direct employee making $50,000 a year may be sitting right next to an employee making $30 an hour, which is the equivalent of, you know, closer to $60,000 a year. And why is that right? Why is the hourly person? For that very reason, Because the company's not paying for those extra perks. And so, in a perfect world for me it would be that would be an option. It would almost be a la carte for an employee. Do you want more money in your paycheck, or do you want, do you want these perks and benefits? It's not that simple in our current environment, but I think what Cissy said is right on point.
Peter :Well, what we mentioned also like that is. That's an especially disciplined view of it. How many people are disciplined enough to set up two accounts and do that as opposed to just taking it all and being like I'm going on vacation?
Pete :Yeah, it's all I mean how many of us are disciplined to save money anyway regardless?
TikTok Video:right, so I don't think.
Pete :I think if you're not disciplined enough to do that with a normal paycheck, then you're.
Peter :Yeah, that could be at least it wouldn't the normal page. That's where the people, you know, the people who aren't that discipline, at least with a normal day, they're forced to have, you know, put in money towards health insurance or whatever, because they don't have the option of their bodies. So I guess that's the, that's the upside of it.
Ashley:I agree. All right, so Freelance was our conclusion freelance or nine to five, which is better?
Pete :Well, who's who suited for it, right? I mean, that's really that's what the topic is. Is Millennials first right, our millennials as a generation blanket statement suited for freelance work.
Ashley:Maybe some, but I was. I mean, I can't make a bling.
Peter :I would say it's 5050, because we're kind of in between. We went from being in an office to now being used to, you know, the more remote type work and the rise of the digital age was right in the middle of our, like, professional growth. So I think that there's a lot of people who kind of are used they there, they prefer the old way, that the employer Benefits way and then. But I think there is, I probably I would say I'll say I'll even go this far, I'll say 60, 66, you know, two-thirds of the people are probably more nine to five and one employer benefits. Only about a third of them are Are gonna be pushing that, that freelance thing, at least with my generation. That'll be my generalization there.
Pete :All right, ashley, your take on millennials.
Ashley:I'd say 5050 again. It might work for some, and then it. Others are used to the nine to five, so it's whatever they're accustomed to.
Peter :On the millennials we're about to take on Gen Z so Gen Z is fine.
Pete :So here's the problem with Gen Z in this regard. We didn't talk about this yet.
Peter :What is the problem with their?
Pete :topic. So let me what I did earlier and talk about the generations I'm not part of, because that's what's on about. This is that your generation actually wants more from your employer, not perks and benefits, but you care about their political stance. Is you compare? You care about things like esg, which isn't just a whole different, you know topic. How are they? What is their stance on the environment? What is their stance on social issues, which once again has nothing to the hot dog vendor who cares who he's voting for, right, like that shouldn't matter to the person serving the hot dog.
Peter :That's your opinion. The Gen.
Pete :Z. Yes, in my opinion, but it does matter to GenZ and I think that is. That is makes a generation somewhat less prone, in a way, like to being really autonomous where you may. That's hard to find right, I mean. That's a, it's limiting the Gen Zs.
Peter :They view it at least the people that I, I know they view it as more of an extension of their own, like they demand that the company has these, you know this socially responsible, environmental, like all these things, because it's an extension of Themself and they want to view themselves that way. So the place they work at should also have those same Viewpoints, and I think that that's where, whereas you're, you're talking about Gen X saying like it's a transactional, like you pay me money, I, I spend the money. Like that's, you know, that's how it works and that's the end of our relationship.
Pete :Well, should it? Okay? So here's a question Should it not be transactional? Because if you, you have a job to do, you have a job to do. Should the relationship Go beyond that, right? If you think of the term like company loyalty, and you know why should a company be loyal, why should an employee be loyal to a company? It is transactional by nature and when we have those expectations of loyalty on top of it Once again, it just sort of blurs what's what's actually happening. I mean, I'm loyal to my friends, I'm loyal to my family. I'm not loyal to my community, loyal to my employer. If I, if they stop paying me, would I be loyal, right? I mean, I just heard my dog bark. If I stop feeding my dog, his loyalty to me is going to end real quickly, right He'll try to eat me within a week, I'm pretty sure.
Pete :so the concept of loyalty to me puts almost an undue burden on On a situation that's just an unnecessary burden, rather what do you think about that? That's.
Peter :That's probably not the most popular thing I could say no, I, I mean, I agree, I think that I mean that's, that's been a Thing people are proponents of. That's the whole. You know, go, you, go where the money is. So the you know. But you hear a lot of, you see a lot of articles that are talking about, like, employee employees I saw we see it's millennials, millennials that have no loyalty anymore, like no employer loyalty. They'll just job hop until they get you know, more money. But I to me, and that makes sense, yeah, you're going to go to the place that pays you better, like if it's a truly transactional relationship.
Pete :But the concept of loyalty anyway, you know people say, oh they, you know, people used to be loyal and work for a company 30 years. Well, because the companies took good care of them. Okay, those companies were owned by the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilt. They weren't. They weren't so generous in the way they were taking care of their employees, right, just because people work.
Pete :You gotta go watch for 30 years? I don't. I just think it's misguided the the concept of expecting loyalty one way or the other In many cases. So, yeah, you should do what you agree to do, you should stand by your word, all those things. But um it, you said the word transactional. I mean that's kind of the nature of what the real. That's how it starts.
Peter :Well, that's how it's true. That's how freelance, you know, really goes, even that's Purely transactional. You ask me to do something. It's gonna take me two hours. I'm gonna bill you for two hours, that's it.
Pete :I mean listen, I don't expect you guys to show up on Monday if I tell you I'm gonna stop paying you.
TikTok Video:Yeah, if.
Pete :I go hey, the company's not paying you anymore. See you Monday. How loyal are you gonna be? You should? That's not loyalty, that's, that's just weird, uh. Similarly, I don't think I should continue to pay you if you stop doing the job you were hired for. Right, I might like you, but it's a business, so that should be the nature of their relationship. Is you think we can ever get there?
Peter :I think we're going we're heading there. I think we're heading there. I mean, you, we've seen it with you know, people's, people's loyalty goes as far as the, the benefits, which that's just competitiveness between companies and the pay. I think that that's where it is. I don't think it, you know. I think company loyalty and someone working for the same company for 30 years is not the norm anymore.
Ashley:I don't think it's a no why not? Because now everyone just likes job hopping and if they see a job that's gonna pay them more.
Peter :Throwback to our two.
Pete :So anyway, so it was. Dylan made a comment earlier About what's important. I'm gonna try to find it here, see if I can show it. Uh, this was some survey that was done, not the it biggest number of participants, but let's go with it. Career growth, remote work, total comp, so comps three. You guys both just said money as a reason to change jobs. This survey says otherwise. Do you believe those numbers?
Peter :Well, it's really behind work life. I mean, it's a third thing.
Ashley:So so what 100 remote work?
Pete :But I find career growth interesting because that I certainly don't associate with younger generations who are impatient and expect success to happen sooner, where career growth, if it's significant and meaningful, takes time and effort. It's not going to happen quickly and the people who I've seen change jobs largely over the past couple of years Haven't done it for career growth. They that's not been the reason they've they've made the switch.
Peter :That's an ancillary thing, I think, in a lot of cases. But if you're good, if you're a Whatever manager, and this company's offering you a job as a senior whatever manager that's you know taking it for career growth, if they happen to pay you more, I mean that would probably be the number one thing. I would think, although, like the core into this work life, flexibility is the number one thing that people take into account.
TikTok Video:So I can see that I mean I would think it would be.
Ashley:I feel like work life and remote work like has just become such a large trend that people are focusing that as a priority right now and then they lose track of like prioritizing career growth.
Pete :So okay, I feel like we get. We get here every time. So what work life balance means what to you?
Peter :People work to live. You don't live to work, that's that's what it means. Yeah, I'm working to support my lifestyle, not I'm not Having a lifestyle that goes beyond. That's all like based around my, my job, I guess that's so what's the term?
Pete :I guess what I'm asking is what determines that? Like what? Where does the balance lie? Yeah, because we always hear the term I need work life balance. Well, what does that mean?
Peter :Well, it means different things, different people. I guess some people means like I only work, you know, 40 hours a week and I don't want to hear. Some other people means that can I can go to a doctor's appointment and come in late, if and it's fine and you know as long as I get my work done for the day, type of thing.
Ashley:Yeah.
Pete :I think it changes, but so you know, you know how to achieve that freelance.
Peter :Yeah, exactly. Well that freelance work like balance, is like the number one benefit. So you want to, you want to take some, some of it into your own own hands. Freelancers for you, that's our, it's our sales pitch for it, I guess.
Pete :So you guys have you guys, let me off easy today. No, uh, no shots at gen X before we go.
Peter :Well, I mean. Gen X is the shot at you is just that you, you're always trying, you keep trying to pit us against each other, like why are you so contentious? Why is gen X so contentious?
Ashley:Well, well, I think if you want a little feud Next episode, we should have a meme off show means that a meme off, show me Off. A meme off, show me a meme off. Okay, about gen X. Let's see, let's get. Try to back yourself up. Um, peter can be in charge of finding means on me. You can be in charge of finding means on Peter, and I'll be.
Pete :It's no rules, we're just oh, we're just going crazy.
Ashley:Okay, all right.
Pete :We're gonna do it.
Ashley:Perfect.
Pete :You guys have been, you guys have been too friendly to each other among other things You're supposed to us. Us uh us.
Peter :Uh, young whipper snappers have to stick together against the, the old guy who thinks that, uh, you know, walked up hill both ways in snow back in his day.
Ashley:Yeah.
Pete :All right, I can live with that. Well, look, I mean I, you know I, I was raised differently, I know that. So my generation was. We've experienced different things. So have you actually then In peter's coddled generation? So, um, there's a, there's a reason why you guys grew up in the war, in the race.
Ashley:I'll make sure to show all this in my memes next week.
Pete :Okay, well, wait, we'll save it for the memes. Let the memes do the talking. Um. Well, guys, thanks for commenting and I'm sorry we didn't get to all of. We. Actually had a lot of great comments. I wish we could. We'll look through them and see if we can, uh, incorporate some of that into future episodes. And if you have suggestions on what you would like to hear us talk about and you guys can weigh in on, let us, let us know. We love the comments and any feedback We'll, um we'll be greatly appreciated. So, thank you.
Ashley:Thank you guys.
Peter :Thanks guys.
Ashley:See you next time next week.