finding career zen
Stories and interviews highlighting the unique challenges, failures, and successes encountered on the path to achieving career zen.
finding career zen
Who to Use as a Reference When You Have None
Have you ever wondered about the importance of job references when seeking employment? Together, hosts Pete Newsome and Ricky Baez dissect this critical topic, highlighting its significance in the hiring process. Their conversation goes deep into the role references play in affirming your character and skill set to potential employers. They'll tackle challenging topics, such as addressing a situation where your current boss may not be your most favorable reference.
As Pete and Ricky peel back the layers of obtaining references, they'll guide you through the professional etiquette of leaving a job. Drawing from their respective areas of expertise, they offer invaluable tips on handling references with grace and professionalism. They also stress the importance of supplying your references with your resume and other pertinent information, plus why it's crucial to show them gratitude for their time. Whether you're starting your career or looking to make a significant move, don't miss out on these game-changing insights. Trust them; it could be the difference between landing your dream role or missing out.
You're listening to the Finding Career Zen Podcast. I'm Pete Newsome and I'm joined again today by Ricky Baez. Ricky, how are you?
Ricky Baez:I am doing fantastic, pete, it's Friday, we're in Florida, we can't complain.
Pete Newsome:No, well, you can, but no one's going to care, that we know right.
Ricky Baez:No one's going to care. You're right.
Pete Newsome:So we won't complain, We'll choose not to, and instead we'll talk about something that's relevant to our listeners, which is the reference process and a pretty important thing in the entire interview process necessary to get a job. In a lot of cases most cases, I would say, but it's not always the easiest part to handle A lot of people don't know who to use as a reference, how to go about asking someone to be a reference, so that's what we're here to talk about today.
Ricky Baez:Absolutely. And folks references it's to me Pete references is no different than you looking for a plumber and you're asking for your friends and neighbors on who's a great plumber. That's exactly what references do. If you're looking for a job, right, it's just somebody other than yourself talking up your skill set and talking up who you are as a person.
Pete Newsome:Well, it's saying, hey, I may want to hire this plumber, right, but I want to find out whether this person is actually as good as they say they are. So that's what I think of as a reference Someone who can attest to your skills, your background, your ability, your character and effectively give confirmation that you are who you claim to be right, who your resume says you are, who you appear to be, through the interview process. So it's a really important step and, as a long-time staffing company owner, it's something I take very seriously I would say more seriously than most, because our reputation is on the line. When we recruit a candidate and submit that candidate for consideration to one of our clients, it is our line of defense. I'll say that's necessary and I'll tell you there's nothing worse than getting a phone call to say did you check that person's reference? Because you know it's not good, whatever would come next, and I would always want to be able to say definitively yes, I did so.
Pete Newsome:I think it's a really important part of the process. Now, in your entire HR career, what would you say? I mean, do you think most companies take it seriously? I don't think they do. I think some do, but most don't.
Ricky Baez:The only companies that take it seriously are the ones who got burned by not doing it right. It's like we're in a seatbelt, right? Oh, why do I need this? Why do I need this? Until you get into a fender bender and it could have been worse if you didn't have your seatbelt on you quickly realize the value of it right. Same thing here. Actually, I think I was reading a story that I used from my class about a year ago. It was a big retail organization that hired somebody, didn't check any references, and this person turned out to be a violent criminal, right, that just wasn't really arrested for it. But what ended up happening is that they did something that got the organization in trouble. And then you get that question. The question is did you check this person's?
Pete Newsome:Or did you run their background right? I mean that Absolutely, and those stories do happen a lot. That's a little bit of a different topic, but still relevant. Is this person going to be a good hire? We know, or at least I strongly believe, that you really don't know what someone's like till you live with them, right, and they can interview. Well, they can look great. On paper it seems like a match made in heaven, but when you actually have someone in the seat and you have to see each other day to day, you get to know what someone's really like, just like in any relationship. So this is that extra layer, right. A criminal history. Is this person a felon? Well, that's relevant to know for a lot of jobs, right. But how well did this person perform in the past?
Pete Newsome:And your seatbelt analogy is a really good one, because when I was I'm so old, ricky, that you used to have drivers at in school where you learned to drive that way and I remember a guest came in one day.
Pete Newsome:It was somebody who worked for the police department investigator and he said you know, he was a bunch of 15 year olds, right, who probably weren't inclined to wear seatbelts habitually. And he said I've never unbuckled a dead body, and he said I've dealt with a lot of dead bodies and it just resonated with me, so I got the right message at a young age. And so that is a really good analogy, because when I think of references, it's easy to cut corners right as an employer, but you shouldn't and so for candidates who are really speaking to today, be prepared for right and so a lot of people. If you're young in your career especially, you don't think you have anyone to give as a reference, or you don't know who you should give as a reference. That's who I really want to focus on today. Well, let the employers worry about themselves separately, right, or hire a really good staffing company who will do it for you, that's that option exists but let's start with that.
Pete Newsome:So we've already said that a reference is someone who can attest to who you are, what you've done, what you give your prospective employer some indication of what you'll be like if they hire you. But if you don't have any work history, where do you start? Right, where do you start? Well, let's first break down the different kinds of references. Right, there's professional if you don't have a professional history, great, well, we'll get to that later. Academic if you're young, you have academic history in terms of professors, teachers, right you. And then you have character references, coaches, people from your community, neighbors you've worked with. So let's kind of talk about those in detail. You up for that?
Pete Newsome:I'm up for it well, let's start at the, the character references. Now I think a lot of the younger you are, the more relevant that is because you're not going to have the professional history. So if you're a job seeker and you don't have those those professional references to go to in a lot of us do after been the workforce for a while then you really start. You need to start thinking about who could be that character reference for you. Where do you recommend someone? Begin that?
Ricky Baez:so I like how you said where do you start? Right, because the two kids just pick out a name of people you know. You get to be really strategic about it. So you get a sit down and figure out who will paint you in the best light and what you're looking to do, right, see. So, again, character reference. You can pick a sports coach, a community leader, a neighbor, exactly how you said. But I mean not all of those people. Unless you, you walk a water, not all of those people view you in the same light.
Ricky Baez:So you might want to make a list based on what you're looking to do. Who is going to speak for the skill set that this employer is looking for, and make out that. Listen, those are the people who you should select as a character reference. Now, don't just blindly throw the their name out there. Why should figure out who you want to select? Give them a call and let them know, ask them first. Can I use you as a reference? Here is what I'm trying to do, here is what I applied for. Is this something you'll be able to do for me? Right, and then it's. It's. You really have to be, but methodical about it, right, because you can't just pick anybody, and then they'll say anything about you that might come back and buy you in the but later on so let's look, put that aside for the moment.
Pete Newsome:So I do want to drill into how to approach someone, when to approach someone and so, but you're a hundred percent on point with that. It's a really important thing to bring up. But the the first thing you said to come attention was planning. It's not something you want to do on the fly, but it's something that job seekers rarely do. On the front end of their search they're thinking about their resume, they're thinking about how to find jobs, how to you get interviews. No one's really thinking about the reference part. But that's okay and that's normal. So when you get there, take the time to play, make a list, just like you said. It's easy again if you're in the been in the professional world for a long time, because most organizations who are considering you for a job are going to want your professional references and not really get into the character references. So you, the younger you are, the more relevant that is. So make that list and and start off and then consider, like you said, why one person would be appropriate for one scenario, a different person for another. Make as long a list as you can and then that gives you the best options to choose from when the time comes.
Pete Newsome:Next group is your academic. Now, a lot depending on where you went to school, right. How, how well you did as a student, right? I didn't probably have a long list of academic references. Truth be told, when I was coming out of school that would not have been my strong suit and that's okay, right, but but depending on who you are let's say you're an introvert who doesn't have a lot of character references. You weren't involved in clubs and activities and teams and and out and about in the community. That's okay. Hopefully you were involved academically and you have people to go to, and I think the same logic applies. So rights make a list. Who do you think should be on that list for academic references?
Ricky Baez:so it's a professor. I love that idea. But, just like the character reference, make a list right, because you don't know how a professor perceive you. Now, every air on I can't see every, almost every student has one professor, one teacher who they resonated with, right and and and I remember fourth grade, mrs Anderson. She taught me how to write script. Nobody a cursive, nobody does that, he put right. Obviously that's that's a long time ago, but that is a teacher that many moons later I still remember.
Ricky Baez:So in college. There has to be a professor that you, that you resonated with and you've had that report with. That's the professor that you need to connect. They will paint you into that best light. If you got a professor who, who kind of like through the book at you and you kind of had rough patches with, yeah, you may not want to pick that person, or a classmate or a lab instructor, depending what you did somebody who, who is an, who has experienced the output of your work, that can articulate that in a way that will get you hired right. You want the person to say, wow, this, this, I don't know what happened in class there, but they love this person. We need to have this person on board. So that's where I would start. What about you?
Pete Newsome:well, I agree with everything you said, and and is someone who's checked a lot of references over the years. There's nothing worse, Really. Do you get flat out bad references? It doesn't happen. Very frequently People are afraid to do that number one, right? I mean, no one really likes to do that. Candidates are, for obvious reasons, very hesitant to give the names and contact information of people who are not going to be favorable references, so that's not surprising. But it's the ones who don't have anything to say at all. Those are the ones that bother me as a recruiter when I'm considering a candidate. So you made the point someone who can really speak to what you did and what you're all about. The ones that can't. It's odd. It's like why did you give this person as reference? They seem to barely know you.
Ricky Baez:Can I see something?
Pete Newsome:in that.
Ricky Baez:Rick, we're from the opposite end real quick. So I've gotten those. I've gotten a reference that they did not do a good job in giving me what I needed about this person to give that person to the next step. Now I start thinking two things from the employer's perspective what kind of person is this? And the judgment of this person. You picked this person to paint you into the best light and this is what they gave. Now your judgment is in question, so you've got to do your homework, because that's how it looks like from my perspective, right On my end, and I'm assuming it does to you as well right, it does Well.
Pete Newsome:And so let's move on to the professional references, and because I want to get into who you should ask and how and why a little more specifically. But professional references are different to me, so I'll just give everyone a heads up on this that we've talked a lot about how you should depart. When you, when you put a notice, you should do it respectfully, professionally, give proper notice by default two weeks and the reason for that is there's a very good chance of people who you worked for are going to be called as a reference at some point in your future. Maybe not immediately, but this is where it makes a lot of sense and it's necessary to look up longer term. And so that's hard to do. It's really hard to do when you're, when you're, when you're upset, when you're mad or angry, you just want to get out. And once you make a decision to leave, I mean, let's be honest, we all know this feeling right, every day seems like torture. Well, you're not doing it for the benefit of your employer you're soon to be former employer you're doing it for your benefit and, hopefully, the benefit of the people you like and care about who you worked with. I mean, that's, that's great, that's noble, but you're really doing it for yourself and, above all else, because those people are going to be necessary in your life at some point. And I'll tell you why I say that.
Pete Newsome:One of the commitments my staff and company for corner resources has made from day one is that we will check professional references for our clients who expect that of us. And those professional references are not a buddy. They're not someone you went to lunch with every day, who worked at a different department. It's not the person who got you the job, who, who you know doesn't work there anymore, an old college roommate. It's not that we specifically want to speak to your former supervisors, the people who you reported to, and we don't say, hey, ricky, give me a reference. We say, who did you report to at ABC company? Now, that's the reference we want, it's the reference we need.
Pete Newsome:It may not be the reference you want to give, right? So that is on you as a candidate, as a, as an employee who may have to give that reference at some point. And we're not the only ones who do that, right. I mean, I would say that's a smart thing to do. That's why we've had it in place for so long. So Just know that how you leave is how you'll be thought of, right, that'll be the the, the, that parting. You know thought stays forever, so leave in the best possible light. That's my soapbox moment. I always need one, I think. Right, that's it for today.
Ricky Baez:I mean that that that's a good point because you're right. You know, when you put in your notice and you decide to leave right, your rationale, your point of view, change to to some people, because I've seen some people that they work to the bitter and I'm talking about to the bitter and as if they've never put in those two week notice. And that is the employee you really don't want to lose, right, cause they do an amazing job. But that's a really good point that people don't think about. As soon as you put in that two week notice, they're going to want to reference from the people that you put in the two week notice too. And I don't care how long you've been with the organization two weeks, two years, 20 years, 30 years you will be judged by those last 14 days and how you leave Perfect way to put it.
Pete Newsome:Perfect and the, and as, again, someone who has checked a lot of references, if I'm checking one for you and they say, boy, do we miss Ricky, that's music to my ears as a recruiter. Right, oh, he did everything. Right, because, even if you, even if you screwed up a lot along the way to your point, if you, if you leave, well, they're going to, they're going to think highly of you and they're going to want to help you in return, right Versus the opposite. So proceed with caution there. You can try to give people who mentors and coworkers and all that, and maybe you should, right, if I'm being completely transparent, giving advice to candidates, give the reference who's going to put you in the best light, someone who's going to be honest, of course, right, not not make up things, say you did things you didn't do, but someone who you feel very confident will be favorable if called upon. Right, that's, I mean, that's just being smart, it is.
Ricky Baez:And and and look it's, it's. There's a lot of different ways you can go. You can go with a manager. You can go with a coworker, a mentor. If you go with a manager, let me tell you, folks, make sure you talk to that manager. And again it's. I think we're beating, we're doing it?
Pete Newsome:Yep, that's, that's what we do.
Ricky Baez:To death. We are right. Just make sure that that they, they, they really, really focus on it, because if you've had some rough patches with your manager, don't use them. So, pete, now let me ask you a question what if you are having some rough patches with your manager and your, your? Your new company wants a reference from your current supervisor.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, that's a. That's a reality. And I'll tell you, it just came up with. Someone on my team just in the past week was saying that there was a, a candidate who said I did not leave on good terms and it was a short stent, you could see it. It kind of stuck out on the resume. I just happened to be looking at the resume and talking about this candidate and asking why, you know, did we have that reference? And they, they said they didn't want to give that reference. It wasn't a good situation. They left on bad terms. They'd give it if they needed to, but it was going to be bad.
Pete Newsome:Now I appreciate that, right, and I don't remember I don't know if they got into detail about what actually happened with the recruiter, but the candidate didn't hide from it either, and and that's okay, we all have bad experiences. I mean, I can think of someone I reported to in the past who I can almost guarantee would not speak very highly of me in many regards. I we did, we were, did not mesh. We'll say it was someone I inherited as a manager. This is a long, long time ago, but I still feel the same way about that situation. Right, I wouldn't say favorable things either, so that, but, but you know what now that's, that's on me, because I'm the employee who needed, could have needed, to rely on that, and I was the person, and I've told the story in the past how it was a learning opportunity for me because I didn't realize job number one is to make sure, if I'm an employee somewhere, that my manager's happy with my performance.
Pete Newsome:I wasn't in that mindset back then. I was a lot younger. I thought I knew better. Maybe I did know better, didn't matter, right, I wasn't in charge. So we'll move on from that. But that's a tough one and it comes up, so just be conscious of it, and that's why we're talking about this today. So you, you could say, well, I may not be able to stand the way that person looks or the sound of their voice, but I have to suck it up and smile until I'm out and leave in the best possible way, or it's going to follow you.
Ricky Baez:That's right. That's right, and, and, and, yeah, it's, it's. You hit the nail right of the head there. Just make sure that you suck it up, and it because the end goal is going to be to make sure that you land on your feet wherever it is that you go. That's it.
Pete Newsome:So now we, we know who you, who you should ask, how do you ask them, when do you ask them? We talked about making a list. You should make as long a list as you can. It won't take that long. Go, go through your work history, go through your contacts, put those people together Again professional, academic character references that's who you want to target and rank them Right. You might want to put them situationally because, depending on your situation, on your job search, how long it lasts, how many companies you potentially interview with you, may need to give references more than once, and that's something to be very conscious of. You don't want to go to the same person over and over and over, right, don't you agree?
Ricky Baez:No, I agree, it's I. I pause because I'm like that makes sense. That definitely makes sense. You want a variety of people to give a variety of different points of view, so I never thought of it that way, to be honest.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, I mean, it's just it. Well, if you go through a long enough interview process, you're going to encounter it.
Ricky Baez:Oh yeah, so no, no, no, I get it. Look, and, and you will encounter that. But, guys, everybody listening, at the end of the day, you've got to be relatable in everything you do. You have to be relatable. People have to like you. Right, the people who do not like you are not going to, are not going to give you a glowing reference. So you know, as you need to work just as hard, you need to work just as hard at making sure you provide the right references and as you do at your own personal how you come across to people, right, wouldn't you agree? Wouldn't you need to work on your personal skills just to make sure, at the very least, they give you a glowing review?
Pete Newsome:Yeah, so that's yeah. So we want to approach someone in advance. So make your list right and then and then reach out to these people and, and you know, if you were on my list, ricky, I would say I'd either send you a message because you don't want to put someone too much on the spot, you don't want to make it awkward. So I would recommend in many cases sending a quick message via email and say hey, ricky, looking, I'm on the job market right now. I'm actively interviewing. Would you be willing to? If you, would you be a K-File List, us professional reference?
Pete Newsome:If asked, right, I want to give you the opportunity to say no, and you may, you may have a reason to. You may say and this is hard, right, I mean you may say, sure, pete, I'd, I'd, I'd love to. Or you may say my company won't let me, right, that happens at times. I'm not allowed to. Or, hey, I'm not sure that would be the best approach for you to take, right, that could happen.
Pete Newsome:But you want to give that person a heads up and then commit to only giving their name out when the job is. It looks serious. So you know, let's stop and say do not put your references on your resume. That is unnecessary. It's and I would say it's inappropriate sort of I mean it's not a huge offense, but if someone is generous enough to say, yes, you can list me as a reference, then don't take advantage of that generosity by putting their contact information out to the world, and I do mean the world. When you post your resume on LinkedIn or any of the job boards, it's potentially seen by countless recruiters who share it, and it's just, it's a bad idea. I'm surprised it still happens as much as it does. It's not a great idea. People will try to contact your references for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with you. That know that above all else.
Ricky Baez:Well, from the other side of the fence, when I see that, when I see the same reference being used over and over again, I'm like what a lucrative job. I'm sure this person is being paid 50 bucks a pop to do these references right. But we can see it on the other side. Now, Pete, I got to tell you something that happened to me not a couple of years ago. Somebody did exactly what you said. They sent me an email saying hey, ricky, I'm looking for this job, I'm applying for this job, would you mind being a reference?
Ricky Baez:I said no, I haven't talked to this person in 15 years. I can only speak to what that person did up until the last time we worked together, right. So I don't know how comfortable I would feel in giving a reference because I don't know what this person has done in 15 years. So the point I'm making this is make sure it's somebody that you at least converse with, you meet with on a regular basis or at least recently. Don't reach out to people that you haven't connected with in years, because, number one, it's just okay, you only want me for my reference. Number one and number two, you just don't know how comfortable they are in giving information that's outdated.
Pete Newsome:And from a recruiter's perspective, they're gonna think it's odd as well, because if you give me a reference from 15 years ago, I'm gonna wonder why you don't have any more recently. And it's just not a good look. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the purpose of the resume, right? I mean, you're not the same person you were 15 years ago. I'm trying to find out who you are now, what kind of professional experience or academic experience you have lately. So that's a bad idea all around.
Pete Newsome:So ask the person, do it in writing, call them whatever you're more comfortable with, depending on the nature of your relationship, and then, if they agree, send them your resume. Make sure that they know what you've said, that you've done, right, that they're going to be asked to speak to, and don't expect that. You know your dates of employment. You know your job titles, you know the work that you perform. Don't expect your reference to remember that. Make it easy for them. Set yourself up for success. Send them your resume so they have it in front of them if that call comes.
Ricky Baez:Hey, that is such a great point that I don't think anybody thinks about. Nobody thinks about that piece. Yes, you've got. Make it easy for them. Send them the job you applied for, information on the company and just and your resume. Once they have that on there, let me tell you that, recruiter, if I hear that somebody mentions everything almost to the tee, right, okay, this person prepared, they know what they're doing. Got a glow and review both start Absolutely.
Pete Newsome:And here's what I prefer when I'm asked to give a reference. It's Pete, would you be willing first, right, yeah, I understand. If not, please let me know. Great, so give the person an out, ask them to confirm, and then, once I agree, then here's the information, here's what I shared with them and then here's who you can expect a call from. So give that information as well. So the person's on the lookout for it. I don't typically. I don't typically. I never answer calls from unidentified numbers. It's not something I do. It's never someone offering anything that I want. It turns out right. So if I, but if I know, hey, this person's maybe calling you from Atlanta or Detroit, I'll look for those phone calls because if I agree to be a reference, I need to make good on that and try to help out the individual who I agreed to help. So, but otherwise I could miss that call and that, yeah, that would that wouldn't. No one wins in that scenario.
Ricky Baez:Pete, I'll tell you this if I agreed to be somebody's reference and they send me all this information that you just said to set me up for success, when the hiring authority calls me to check, I'm like, look, I don't know what you're about to ask, but just on how this person prepared me for this, you should hire them for that. Well, they thought about it. They gave me all the information. I know all about you, I know all about the org. I mean, don't go that route. You know what I mean. Right, but it says on who you are as a person, who you are as an employee. When you set everybody up for success and that tells me the hiring authority, I'm like, okay, this is exactly how they're gonna treat every issue. Coming on board, another gold star.
Pete Newsome:Absolutely, and it's all about preparation right. The more you do just like a cover letter, just like going above and beyond. If don't be like every other candidate, do the most you can do to give yourself the best chance for success. And yes, I worked in the cover letter comment for you.
Ricky Baez:I was waiting for it, but, pete, something else. Hit me something else. Hit me something you said earlier, because if you didn't have the work experience, so you rely on your friends and family. What do you say if somebody used their mother as a reference?
Pete Newsome:No.
Ricky Baez:Right you say no.
Pete Newsome:Absolutely not right, no, that's silly.
Ricky Baez:Because obviously she's gonna give a glowing review. If she doesn't, you got bigger issues than not taking this job.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, and so there's a question this is one of the things we wanna do address on this show today is, if you don't have a reference, that's why we or if you don't think you have a reference to give, you probably do. Right, it's tough if you haven't built rapport with any professor, teacher, anyone at your high school. If you're looking for a job at a high school or college and you don't have any work experience, that's gonna be tough, right, I mean it will be if you have no one to give. So hopefully anyone listening has built a relationship somewhere with someone. But when all else fails this is Canada, so I will tell you this. I kind of alluded to it a little bit ago with the story about a recent candidate in my staffing world that had a short stint and didn't want to give the reference.
Pete Newsome:Be open and honest. If you have been a hermit and you have it, going out in the world and built rapport and involved in things, be upfront about that and say listen, this is this is gonna be a hurdle for me. Help, help me figure out how to overcome it. The more open you are as a candidate, the more transparent you are about those things, the more accommodating recruiters and hiring managers will be that. That's been my experience for the many years I've done this and the thousands of jobs I've been involved with people getting the more open and honest, even if it's bad news, that tells me who you are and listen. If, if someone is only going to tell me that the best news, then that's not who I trust. Right, I trust someone. I will trust those who are willing to share the bad news, to put it out front. Then that's always right. Bad news early is good news. Big believer in that.
Pete Newsome:I learned that from you so tell you, say it before you're asked.
Ricky Baez:Yeah. So let me ask you this then because you, you send out all the requests, right? You prepared everybody. Everything went well. Right now, these are people, the references you asked to, taking time out of their day got to do this for you, taking time out of their busy schedule because they're not being paid for this. Send out a thank, you know. Send a thank you afterwards, right? Thank you for being a reference. And flowers edible arrangements.
Pete Newsome:You love the flowers you know you love the flowers, you love sitting flowers.
Ricky Baez:People respond well to that.
Pete Newsome:I'm sure, I'm sure they do. That's. That's a lot right, I mean. But yes, 100%, send a thank you note, at the very least an email, at the very least in a handwritten note. You know I love that. But yeah, and if you're, if you want to send something, a care package of some sort, that is truly above and beyond maybe only do that after you get the job right, because if you're on the market, I'm I don't feel pressure to do that. It's a wonderful gesture, but if that reference was a big factor in you getting your dream job, I love that idea, ricky send send them something because that glowing reference.
Ricky Baez:Let's go to Denny's 100% go to Denny's.
Pete Newsome:okay, maybe stick with the flowers.
Ricky Baez:Yeah, true, I like that. So so, pete, look, what if I don't have a reference at all? Can I get hired without one?
Pete Newsome:potentially, but sometimes not right. I mean, it depends on what you're being hired for. So if you are A 10 year career professional and you have jobs on your resume and you say I don't have any references, now again company like mine is is for corners, going to ask who you reported to. I'm not going to ask you for reference, is that what I'm going to ask you report to? And so if you say I don't know, I don't remember, I'm not going to give you that information, those are huge red flags. But we know a lot of companies don't ask, so they skip over that process or they let candidates get away with being elusive and not answering.
Pete Newsome:So yes, of course you can get a job, but you'll be excluded from certain jobs. If you're young, it's not nearly as big of a deal, right? I mean that just should go without saying. But if, but, but still, if you have, if you list activities, for example, on your resume, or if you went to through a master's program or a small college and you, you, you list on your resume the involvement you had at those schools and you can't give names of people involved in those activities, that's also a red flag. So I think, hopefully, what we've shared today is you have references, whether you realize it or not, depending on your stage, the stage in your career. But yeah, if you're not willing to give any of those, that's going to send a tough message to those who are recruiting. So what if I have four references? I've gone through the process.
Ricky Baez:I've gone my list, my pros and cons for each one. I submit them. They none of them, respond to the higher manager.
Pete Newsome:So that's, that's happens. You know what our recruiters are checking references and what we'll ask to do is have the candidate follow up with those people and say, hey, I've called Ricky a few times for you. He's not responsive. Can you help me get a hold of him? I mean, but if you've asked Ricky to be your five S for that reference up front and done it the way we're recommending, and that probably won't happen and I think it happens more often in a scenario where the references are asked the way we we like to ask, which is not who the candidate may have had a list of. So those are a little. These are kind of opposing things, right? What I'm recommending candidates to is different than what I would recommend employers do. That's, that's reality.
Pete Newsome:So you know that it happens right and but every company handles those things differently. Hey, you gave me the references. They're not responsive. Good enough, I mean, does that happens a lot more than most people would probably assume? And now? So let's say let's take it further.
Ricky Baez:Let's say they do respond and they gave not a glowing reference, right, they went the opposite way. I mean, how do you follow up back with that reference? So should you follow up back with them at all? Who is the candidate? Yeah, as a candidate, and your reference gave you the opposite. The problem is the kids. The kids probably not going to know, right?
Pete Newsome:I mean the recruiters not going to go back and say, well, I would have hired you, but I don't know. I don't know how a recruiter would handle that personally, but they wouldn't give detail.
Ricky Baez:Right, I mean, look, if I'm a recruiter, depending on the situation.
Pete Newsome:I may want to give that candidate indication that you should consider you giving different references next time, but I'm not going to yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to give that reference. I'm not going to give that reference. I'm not going to give that reference, yeah, yeah, I'm not going to do anything. That's a breach of confidence if I, if someone's willing to share that someone, was it a great employee? So that's a tough, that's a tough one to a tough road to go down. But once again, if you are a candidate and you ask up front are you willing to be a reference, you know, are you comfortable with that? And someone said you, in almost every case, if someone is not going to be favorable, they'll tell you don't know, I'm not willing to do it. So it doesn't happen that often that way, all right.
Pete Newsome:Well, I mean it's.
Ricky Baez:These are things to to think about, because I know a candidate is really worried about the interview, really worried about what to say, and then sometimes the reference piece is oh, got three names, boom, send that over and folks, it's, it's if. If you haven't gotten our, our point from from from this episode is you've got to invest in the time as much as you invest in time and preparing for the interview. This needs to be part of that preparation process and make sure you got the right people that they're going to call Right it's, it's, it's to. I mean, to me, that's just as important as everything else.
Pete Newsome:It is, and that's a perfect way to close. So, yes, thank you very much. That's. I think we covered it all.
Ricky Baez:I think we did, man, I, I, I think we did. I would love to hear what people think you. You know what I would love to hear, pete, I want to hear some horror stories Right, because it's good to hear those things right and then dissect them. So let's put the call out there. If anybody's out there had a horror story with with references like maybe they didn't turn out the way you thought they were, let us know. Let us know, zengig, what's the address? Again, question questions.
Pete Newsome:questions at zengigcom.
Ricky Baez:Got it. Questions and zengigcom. Send it to the questions at zengigcom, let us know. Obviously we're not going to use your name, but I know there's horror stories out there. Send them in so we can, you know, just dissect them and then help everybody else.
Pete Newsome:All right, if we get enough, we'll do that next show. Absolutely, we're in, we're in, all right. Well, thank you for listening, rick. You think it was always. Drive safe. Have a great rest of your day and we'll we'll talk very soon. Have a good one, folks.
Ricky Baez:Have an awesome weekend.
Pete Newsome:Good night.