finding career zen
Stories and interviews highlighting the unique challenges, failures, and successes encountered on the path to achieving career zen.
finding career zen
Warning Signs It's Time For a New Job
Ever felt stuck in a job and yearned for a change? The pandemic has stirred a career revolution, prompting many to reconsider their jobs and seek out new opportunities. Join Pete Newsome and Ricky Baez as they highlight the warning signs that signal it's time for a new job. They emphasize the importance of having a well-thought-out plan before making the big move and the dangers of letting emotions dictate your decisions.
Workplace ethics is a matter we all grapple with. Pete and Ricky shed light on this delicate issue, discussing how personal values can influence your career choices, and how the pandemic has put many in positions where they are forced to stay in jobs that conflict with their principles. The interview process is a crucial juncture where both employers and potential employees need to be transparent and honest. They pinpoint common mistakes and offer tips on how to make the process smoother and more successful.
Ever been in a toxic work environment? Pete and Ricky discuss this perplexing issue, examining the warning signs that suggest it's time to move on. They also explore the importance of self-reflection, understanding if you are part of the toxicity, and the necessity of having a plan B. In conclusion, they share insightful tips on how to prepare for a career transition, the importance of proper notice before quitting, and how to navigate the emotional roller-coaster that comes with changing jobs. This episode is a one-stop shop for all your career transition needs!
You're listening to the Finding Career Zen Podcast. I'm Pete Newsome, joined by Ricky Baez. Once again today, Ricky how are you?
Ricky Baez:I'm feeling the force today, Pete, feeling the force.
Pete Newsome:I see that you have Star Wars gear on. That's a very, very specific look you're choosing to go with today.
Ricky Baez:Well, it is Right. After this, I got to go have a meeting with a client and she is a humongous Star Wars fan. I got to fit the part because we're going to get along great.
Pete Newsome:Now, is there any risk that you you know that she may be a Star Trek fan and you got that wrong? In which case, is there any?
Ricky Baez:you know how hilarious that would be.
Pete Newsome:Because you, because you you know nerds in that area feel pretty passionate about your choice of one or the other, right? It's not like you can go back and forth.
Ricky Baez:I got to tell you, Pete, if, if I got there and she's like ew, I don't think we're going to go past that conversation. I'm not going to like her anyway. I mean, how can we possibly get along, as she hates Star Wars and she's a huge Star Trek fan? Because I don't like. I do not like Star Trek at all.
Pete Newsome:Understood. Well, let's hope you got it right, and I hope so, which is best you can let us know the outcome next time we're together. There you go.
Ricky Baez:Absolutely.
Pete Newsome:So we're going to talk about something different today. Believe it or not, not Star Wars Come on, I'm gone, I'm leaving. We'll talk.
Ricky Baez:Star Wars later.
Pete Newsome:All right. Today we're going to talk about the signs of when it's time to look for a new job. What are the warning signs that employees should work for? That's a topic that all comes up in almost everyone's career at some point.
Ricky Baez:It does and it's. I think people are more, are more bold in their decision to decide to jump ship or stay. Stay on a ship post pandemic, right, pre pandemic? I don't think any. I would venture to guess the amount of people who would jump ship because of these things would be was less than the pandemic Then after the pandemic, because now we have other choices. So this is important to know for people out there, for business leaders and and and and organising, and even people looking for a job to know what are some of the signs to say I am done with this. This is not good for my mental health or financial health. I got to go somewhere else. So this is a great list.
Pete Newsome:I want to make sure I understand what you're saying that people are more prone to jump quickly now than pre pre COVID, I think so I believe so.
Ricky Baez:Why is that? Because I think it's I. I know there there were some people before the pandemic who were thinking about jumping ship to go somewhere else, whether it's to go to a different job, whether to just venture out on their own and start their own thing or just enter the gig economy. And they, they were afraid to do it because those waters were not as tested as they felt comfortable with. Come pandemic they kind of got pushed into those waters and you either sank or you swim. And people learned that they can swim. And I and and now with all of these success stories out there with the gig economy and how the pandemic sparked a brand new industry, I really think people have the the nerve now more to jump ship them before I really do.
Pete Newsome:I agree with you. I think there was a lot of that happening a year ago, so we're recording this in August 2023. Now the pendulum has started to swing back. I think for the past six months it's it's gone to no longer be such a strong employees market, and so there may be more hesitation now than there was this time a year ago, and rightfully so. Companies aren't hiring as quickly yeah, there was. Yeah, the pendulum has just had such big swings in the space over the past three years. I think it's settling, but still a weird time in the market. Still companies aren't hiring at the pace they were what under what I would consider to be normal circumstances of the time of my professional life, which is a little over 25 years now.
Pete Newsome:So I know this is, this is a weird time, but the message today, more than anything else, is don't stay in a bad situation. That's right. Yeah, identifying what a bad situation is is very personal, but there are some warning signs that are universal and that's what we'll talk about today and, you know, create almost a checklist of sorts for anyone who is asking the question is this a good time to leave? Right, should I consider now?
Pete Newsome:There's an old saying in. It probably applies to a lot of different aspects of life. That is, effectively don't run away from something, run to something. So to keep that in mind as well with this conversation, while we're talking about reasons to leave, the best reason of all to leave is because you have something better to go to. That is the goal, and so one thing that I'll caveat up front is understand. Don't let your emotions take over. Don't leave without thinking it out. So listen to this podcast, listen to the things we're going to talk about, consider how they apply in your own situation and then put together a plan. But to the best degree possible, have a plan for what you're going to do next, versus just hey, I need to get out here.
Ricky Baez:Use just something really interesting there, pete, you said consider how this applies to your situation. This is a list that it's not all encompassing, but some things do apply to you, some things do not. What I want people to think about is, if you're planning on jumping ship because of any of the things you hear today, please, please, be cognizant of the fact that what if some of these things that you're running away from you find them where you're running to, right? So what are the things that are really really crosses the line for you. For you to say this is enough, because, look, the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side. The grass is greener where you water it, so you have to decide where it is you want to be, because some of these things you're going to find elsewhere, right? So let's take it off real quick, if it's okay with you, pete.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, that's a great point. I'm glad you made it.
Ricky Baez:What about if your work isn't recognized? So if you go to work and your work is not recognized, right?
Pete Newsome:Go ahead. Well, there's just so much meaning behind that. How does that make you feel? That's a big thing with, I think, younger professionals today is to attach feelings and emotions to their job in a way that my generation did not and still does not right. Where I don't, I tend to separate that a lot my job from my emotions, as best as I can. Today that's not prevalent, I don't think, or it's becoming less so. So there's multiple reasons for your work not being recognized to be a problem. That's how it's going to make you feel to the point of being just dissatisfied, unhappy, carrying on over to your personal life, but also that's going to limit your ability to advance, to succeed in an organization. So to me, that statement is a simple thing to say, but it has a pretty complex message behind it.
Ricky Baez:Now can I say something from the opposite side too, because I've had some really good conversations with employees about these, because they'll say they'll complain that their work isn't being recognized. My pushback to them now this is from an HR perspective. My pushback to the employee was what have you done to make sure your work is noticed? Right, you have to be able to pat yourself in the back. You have to be able to toot your own horn, especially in a big organization. You cannot expect a leader of 5,000 people to know what every single person is doing. So if you feel your work isn't being recognized, before you jump ship, make sure that you're doing everything you can to make sure your work is being noticed. Here's why, because if you don't do that and you go somewhere else, you may be running through the same thing, right, if you don't market yourself. So you've got and this is hard for people who are introverts. It's really hard for them, and I recognize that Guess what folks you got to step outside that box because you got to be recognized for it.
Pete Newsome:And I'll tell you this is something that I would consider to be a weakness for me as a leader, where I, as a career salesperson that's how I always have thought of myself, because that's how I made my living for so long. That's that's what I brought to the table when I started my business years ago is I'm going to be. My work will stand for itself in terms of my compensation right. That's what I experienced, as in heavily leveraged compensation plans earlier in my career, where it's great if my boss says I'm doing a wonderful job, but if my numbers indicate otherwise, that's the real story. Conversely, if I'm making twice my base salary and commission because I'm at 150% of my comp plan as a salesperson, I didn't care whether my boss patted me on the back, because the reward that I was looking for, the recognition, was in my paycheck.
Ricky Baez:So that's a good point.
Pete Newsome:So that's a mentality that my career evolved into, and as a leader now who realizes that that's not everyone's way of thinking, it's been, as you know, as you're working with me on HR issues, that that's not my natural strength, far from it and so I have to realize people seek recognition in different ways, and that's one of the reasons why we founded Zengig is when that realization finally took hold for me Is that you know what? It took me longer than it should have to realize To just completely recognize. Not everyone thinks the way I do about that, and that's okay. So a lot of people do want to be acknowledged and feel the need to have that pat on the back or publicly be recognized that they were doing a good job. So we all seek it in different ways, and now that I've fully realized that and embrace it, I think it's worth mentioning because you have to know what that means to you. So a simple sentence about recognition in your work, very different meanings behind it.
Ricky Baez:Absolutely. So you have to know what's important to you, because that's a good point, what you said. To me what's important is my paycheck. I don't care if my boss likes it or not. If my paycheck reflects the work I've put in, that's awesome. So folks think about what you want to get out of it, because if it's being reported in your paycheck, technically you're good, right. But if you want more than that, yes, up to you.
Pete Newsome:Well, and a lot of jobs, don't you know whether and this is always an argument when it comes to the topic of something like quite quitting, which we've discussed a lot where, if you're going to be paid the same, whether you put in a full, solid, eight hour day versus slacked and goofed off half the day, that's going to be hard to have motivation in that as an employee, and so that recognition is going to need to come from somewhere else If it's not going to affect your paycheck.
Pete Newsome:And I would say that's most jobs that really it's just happened to not be the job that I was in for most of my career, how I've made my living. So one is directly tied to the other for me, but I think that's the minority, so let's move on to the next one, right? I acknowledge that now, when your employer is across ethical boundaries, that's a big one, and one that I also hopeful to say that it doesn't happen too frequently, right? I think, generally, most businesses try to do the right thing, most individuals trying to do the right things, but sometimes there's some bad actors out there.
Ricky Baez:Let's define that, though right, because it's ethical boundaries can be a lot of different things. I'll give you a great example that I was involved with years and many moons ago and what people thought was an ethical dilemma. And the issue was years ago we had a potluck where all this old well, not potluck, but it's just a catered lunch for a bunch of people right, we had a catered lunch. We bought this barbecue joint down the street and we had a lot of food left over.
Ricky Baez:A couple of employees wanted to donate that to the homeless shelter and we're telling them we can't do that, we cannot donate that to the homeless. And they thought we were heartless bastards. But even when I told them, look, if we donate this to the homeless shelter which, don't get me wrong in my heart, I believe we should I'm putting our organization and legal risk is somebody gets sick, we're liable, I have to look out for the best interests of the organization and they thought I was heartless and I'm like I'm sorry, I have to think for the organization. Now, to them that could have been an ethical boundary and I don't know if that's enough for them to quit or not. But I know some people were thinking about quitting that day because of the conversation that I had with them.
Pete Newsome:Well, people, you know those. These are emotional times, right that we're in and we're in a litigious society. We know that, and so that's a that's an interesting one.
Pete Newsome:It depends I could see that conversation headed it can head in that direction and and you know, maybe, maybe people could could chalk that up right If they didn't like the way their employer whether they were justified of this or not, if your perceptions, reality didn't didn't like the way that played out. I've experienced it a number of times in staffing where people didn't candidates didn't want to consider working for a certain kind of business. Debt collection was one that I found odd. A candidate that said nope, I don't want to work for debt collection company. I think that's a bad industry. I don't want to be part of it. Okay, there was another time we had a prospect come to us. We didn't end up working with this company. They were in the adult film industry. They were, they were ran adult video websites and you know, that's just we.
Pete Newsome:There's a lot of people who wouldn't want to go work for a company like that. Right, I think that's a given. So well, now are those ethical? I mean, those are personal choices, are personal morals. What we value, what we align, we're not willing to cross. Those are very personal things. So I think you know that coming into the organization and, like I said, we've had those experiences and we have a choice to make. But when I think of you know you see ethical boundaries cross. I think of legal issues as a company doing something they shouldn't do, or they consciously break into law, or stealing, whatever it might be telling their customers something that they know is not true. That happens all the time in business. Well, let me say this I don't think it happens with most people, but the numbers dictate that it's going to still happen a lot. We know that. So when you face that, that's a tough thing, I mean I think that's a great reason to move on right. If you see the law being broken Absolutely.
Ricky Baez:And look, because I don't want people to think I'm a heartless bastard out there Look, yes, we did not do the food for the homeless thing, but we did donate a large chunk of money because that's better, right. It fulfills our social responsibility as an organization and we don't get anybody in trouble. But you're right, if this happens quite often and you have to make a decision, if you go home at night, if you go home at night knowing your organization is doing this unethical thing, and if you cannot sleep at night, then that is a good indicator that you might want to go somewhere else. And that goes well into our next point, pete. Once you go to bed at night, you can't sleep and you wake up the next morning you realize your company's values don't align with yours. You have a decision to make.
Pete Newsome:Well, and hopefully you can identify that in the interview process, like the stories I just told, which were a little premature, given that this is the next thing on our list. That's more in line with values not matching up because of the industry the organization is in what they do for a living. That's going to happen a lot, or maybe it just isn't interesting to you, but try to identify that on the front. I'm trying to think of examples where that comes up after someone's already employed, where they discovered, wow, this company doesn't really think the way I do. I mean, ideally those kinds of things would come up, like I said, in the process.
Ricky Baez:Pre-employment yeah, I could tell you. I see a lot of this happening when the interviewer just lied through their teeth. It's just a great company to work for oh my God, everybody loves it. How's it working with your leaders? Oh my God, they're the best leaders in the world. They can run Tesla, right, all these things. And then you start working and you find that it's the exact opposite and people quickly realize that in their first week. If it's really that night and day. But then some people stick it out because we have no other choice. I can't find another job elsewhere, but you just became a stepping stone if you're lying in your interview.
Pete Newsome:Well, right. So if you discover that that had happened and once again I'll say I don't think that happens a lot I don't see an upside to companies being dishonest about the during the interview process, knowing the candidates going to figure it out quickly, that just seems like a waste of everyone's time. I haven't encountered that much. I think it's more nuance than that when, as I'm starting to think of these scenarios where wow, there's a lot of pressure, I didn't get that there was going to be so much pressure, or that they're workaholics, right and boy. That's not really what I want and I didn't pick up on that in the interview. Now I think an employer should try to.
Pete Newsome:One of my approaches in hiring and specifically in recruiting has always been let me get all the bad out of the way. Let's start with that. Let's let's. If I know when I'm recruiting for a client that the manager has is a really hard driver, has high expectations, really just not everyone is going to like working for that manager I want to share that with the candidate early in the process because you don't want these bad things coming out at the end when everything otherwise looked good. So that is, I suspect, a common mistake, because companies probably the biggest recruiting mistake that I see out there is this applies to staffing companies as well as to end user companies who are hiring they want to sell the candidate right, you alluded to that earlier and no, no, no, no.
Pete Newsome:Talk the candidate out of it, right? Because then you know that it's really a good match. If I only tell you the good it's like going on a date with someone for the first time, they're going to put their best face on. Or if you're on a dating platform, right, they're not putting the pictures of when they wake up in the morning. I assume right, I've never been on one, had to use a dating app. That's going to be Lutron Pete watch. I'm just going to make that's what I consider to be a safe assumption that people are putting their best foot forward. Right, let me see what you really look like.
Pete Newsome:And then all of a sudden. Well, that's how you should approach an interview process, because it is kind of like a marriage, right, you don't get the chance to find out what they look like in the morning after you've been there. You don't want to find that out after a week. But there's also the reality that you never really know what someone's like until you look with them. That's another thing that I've thought. So I could do all the screening in the world, but the attempt should be there to say here's where things may go wrong if you or we may not align the better job you do of putting those on the surface up front. I think that's a way to go.
Ricky Baez:So for everybody out there listening, I just wanted to be clear. Pete just advocated that when you get married there has to be a 90 day probationary period. That's what I got out of it, I'm kidding.
Pete Newsome:Well, I will say this. There are things that you don't know about someone until you have the chance to live with them. Listen, I've been married for 26 years. I love my wife dearly, but why she insists on moving things on my bathroom sink and letting her look however she wants is a mystery I'll never solve.
Ricky Baez:Oh, Pete. Every guy listening to this right now said oh my God me too.
Pete Newsome:Apparently. There's rules, ricky, that you had to figure out after 26 years. But look, we know that's going to happen in every scenario. So this is not the topic of what we're doing today, but the takeaway from this is, I want everyone to know try to avoid this on the front end. Try to make sure you align in the interview process. That applies to employees as well as employers. So anything else on that one, before we move on.
Ricky Baez:Yes, you used a good line because when you and I have had several conversations in the past about this guy that interviewed you in the past and Fred, I'll tell you the bad part of it. This job is 7 to 7 all these hours. Are you okay with that? And you force them to self-adject and the people who stuck around they know what to expect. So that's the best way to go out there. If you're an interviewer, if you're hiring authority, please make sure that you put out the good, the bad and the ugly. If you're interviewing and I want to know what you think about this, pete if you're the interviewer, the candidate, how do you feel about asking hey, you mind, if I talk to three random people on my way out, how do you feel about that?
Pete Newsome:Well, I think it's. Depending on the situation. It may be odd, it may be awkward, it may be hard to do because you're still trying to get the job as a candidate, and so if you decide that you're trying to take control, there's some risk associated with that, and so I don't know that I'd give that advice universally. I like the concept. I think, as a candidate, do your own research should be part of the equation, and I don't mean getting on an online review site where people go with their access to grind. That is not the thing to do. But try to use your network to get the real scoop and ask. It's sort of like asking for a what is it called a referral? Or if, hey, give me a reference, who's bought your product or services in the past? Can I? Yeah, I mean, it'd be great. I just think for a lot of candidates, a lot of scenarios is going to be hard to pull off.
Ricky Baez:Yeah, it would, especially on the interviewer side. Every organization has that one person that I don't want the candidates talking to Right. Well, chances are they'll get that person.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, well, okay. So let me, let's just close with this. I'm going to look in the camera directly and make sure I say this to any recruiter who's listening rule candidates out. Don't talk them into a job. Find the bad on both sides, share it, bring it to the surface and then, once you do that, if everything still looks good, move forward Right. But bad news early is good news, that we know. So okay. Next one you hit a career ceiling, can't go anywhere. So here's my quick thought on that you still have to stay long enough to get the benefit of being in the role. So I don't I'm not an advocate for job hopping. For that reason you have to.
Pete Newsome:If you say that you were a, this is a terrible analogy. But if you were a Sherpa, you know, on Mount Everest, but you only lasted two days, right, I can't really give you credit for death defying. You know incredible work and effort, right. But if you did that for two years, I suspect the ceiling is relatively low. As a Sherpa on Mount Everest, right, I mean no pun intended on the height, but that that there's no, there's no great advancement opportunities from from the Sherpa profession. However, if you're going to, if you're going to get the benefit of it on your resume and and not have it be a negative on you, you've got to stick it out for a certain period of time. You've actually gone through the cycle, dealt with the inevitable adversity of that job brings with it and that you've overcome long enough to you know, to get credit in my mind.
Ricky Baez:That's right, it's look, it's now. It depends on what you want. A lot of people out there they they don't want to get promoted, they just want to stay where they are and that's it. It's perfectly okay. But if those of you who do want to get promoted, before you jump ship, if you see that career ceiling, does your boss know about your ambition? Does your organization know what you want to do? Because if you don't communicate to them right, maybe, maybe, maybe they thought we don't need this position now that we don't need one extra position. Talk to them, let them know what your ambitions are Now, before you bring that up, you better make sure you're performing, cause let me tell you, if you're not performing, if you're in a pip, it's that that conversation is. I'm going to be honest it's going to fall in deaf ears, because what I'm going to say is I'm happy for your ambition, I'm happy that you have this drive. Let's focus on your performance right now first, and then we'll get there.
Pete Newsome:So this is an interesting. It brings up an interesting point in something that I will tell you. I is an area I don't have great advice to give. I should, given by experience, but I don't on this particular space, and what I'm referring to is this I've seen clients, when interviewing, irrationally expect their candidates to commit to staying a long time, and I mean indefinitely. And I'm specifically thinking of some relatively low end positions, early career positions, positions that you could expect a candidate would want to evolve out of right in advance, from where, if they hear I eventually want to go to grad school for XYZ, that would rule the candidate out. On the other side, I've seen employers rule out candidates for not having showing enough ambition in their in their role. Wow, they were content to sit at XYZ position too long. They don't seem to be hungry enough for me in the what I'm looking to hire.
Pete Newsome:So I think in both of the these scenarios, most of the time the expectations of the manager are unrealistic. It's a personal style, it's something that they latched on to an interviewing versus the organization's perspective as a whole, and probably also the it doesn't realistically represent the situation right and what. It's just something the manager has, you know does right, and so I can't say here's where I struggle with the advice. I can't say wow, answer this way, always say that you want to stay forever. Or always say that you're looking to, you know you're really ambitious and you want to move up because it's not going to serve you well. So the best I can you know advice I can give there is just to be honest and genuine in that answer.
Pete Newsome:Now, that should always be the case, but there's a little gamesmanship when it comes to interviewing and building a resume and all that. We know that right, you have to try to find an advantage for yourself and just like the dating app pictures you don't want to on your resume, put what you look like in the morning, if you're, you want to put your best foot forward. So more than one thing is true here. But be honest about your ambition. So then you don't find out after the fact hey, there's nowhere for you to advance too late. You know to have that discussion now.
Ricky Baez:And Pete, I'm about to throw something out here, left field. I'm a huge fan of a show called Sons of Anarchy and, for those of you who don't know, that is a show about a fictitious town in California where this motorcycle club just runs rampant all over there, that place. There was this one line set in that show that resonated with me, and this is 10 years later, and the line was always tell the truth, regardless what happens out of it and what's supposed to happen and what happens, the negative things that happens after you tell the truth. That's what's supposed to happen, right. And that stuck with me for a long time, and I use that in interviews, I use that everywhere.
Ricky Baez:Because if a candidate says, look, I don't want to move on, I want to go to school, and the organization says, well, I'm not going to hire you, that's not the job for you, right, that's not the job for you, then Because if you lie and you do that and you decide to go to grad school, and the next thing you know you're going to have issues rescheduling later on, right, you might as well start off on the right foot with an organization who your values resonate with theirs and vice versa. That's the best thing, sons of Anarchy. Great show Fx.
Pete Newsome:So let me just add onto that and you see if you disagree with this Always be honest, but don't unnecessarily put out information that may be limiting. Agreed, if you're planning to go to grad school, I don't think that's your ex, you're not obligated to. I don't think you should feel that way. I don't where it's unrealistic to think. I should know the statistics on this. I don't off top of my head how many times people change jobs in their careers, what the average tenure is, but it job changes frequent. If I had to estimate, I would say people change jobs in their professional career probably 10 times on average, and that could be love.
Ricky Baez:I don't think it's high, it's not high by much If so.
Pete Newsome:But my point is odds are you're not going to stay forever. I mean that's we want to go in hoping for the best, but you don't have to say, oh, by the way, last thing is, you're walking out of the door. I plan to leave here in three years. Don't volunteer that information. So, even though you should answer honestly if asked directly, don't go out of your way to interject something that is just going to limit your ability to get the job If asked don't lie.
Ricky Baez:If not asked, don't tell there you go, there you go. I should run for president.
Pete Newsome:Well, you said don't lie. So I don't know. I don't know if you're qualified.
Ricky Baez:It's a shame.
Pete Newsome:It's a shame it's automatically out. So the next one on the list is if you see your company having a series of layoffs. Now, I'm not so sure about this one, while that's something to pay attention to.
Pete Newsome:That one's tough man Is because companies go through layoffs for so many reasons. As you know as an HR professional, there's legal reasons that you made declare a layoff that are just a way of cleaning house, so to speak. It's the best thing the organization could do from a help and wellness standpoint, for that benefits the current employees. So you can't just on the surface say, wow, they're going through layoffs, I need to leave. On the other hand, I've been part of this where there's signs that the company is just going in the wrong direction. Without a plan, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. So you may want to look. You should always be looking out for yourself and, you know, planning ahead. Agreed, is that a red flag or a reason to start taking action? It's worth paying attention to, at the very least, I think.
Ricky Baez:I'm on the fence, pete. I'm on the fence because we started this show talking about if your work isn't recognized, that's a sign that you should leave. But let me tell you, if you're considering leaving because your organization has just had a series of layoffs, think about what that says about your work ethic. If you survive the layoff, that means your work is being recognized. If you survive the layoff, that means you are valuable to the organization. Right, but nobody knows how bad it's going to get, because it's going to be a point where, no matter how valuable your position is, if the organization's got to cut, the organization's got to cut. But I feel weird about that one because I think if you survive the layoff, that is the organization's way of inadvertently telling you you're valuable.
Pete Newsome:Yes.
Ricky Baez:Right now.
Pete Newsome:And it's natural for people to worry. I think the bigger the company, the farther away you are from where the decision's made. You don't have great clarity on why it's being done, and so I recommend to ask. I'm a big believer in ask where you stand all the time. Everyone has the right to do that and deserves an answer to it. I have probably shared this before, but one of the surprising things to me as a business owner for the past two decades is how infrequently people will come and clarify things where I don't find out until too late to do anything about it. Someone misinterpreted something or heard something that bothered them. Well, I want to know. I want to know if you're worried or concerned. I will always have an answer to that. They may not be the answer the individual wants to hear, but I'll always give the answer and I want the opportunity to know what's bothering any employee that we have.
Pete Newsome:So that's. I don't know if that's universal, but I think you should. Don't worry and wonder in the water cooler. Talk, so to speak. Go to the source, go to your manager and say I'm concerned about this. Should I be right? Yep, Put it out there.
Ricky Baez:And look, do do what I did with my team back in the day. When my team got laid off over in Sears, they were not surprised why? Because after every layoff we survived. I'm like guys, don't celebrate, we could be next next time. Always have a plan B. Come in, do the job to the best of your ability, but at the same time, exactly like you said, you have to look out for yourself. Always have a plan B in case this boot drops and the dead. Smooth transition, smooth All right.
Pete Newsome:So next up, I'm going to combine two. Okay, topic work environment. Love that word. And then it's affecting your mental health, right? You're? You're, the stress is too much, your mental health is declining. So talk to work environment.
Ricky Baez:Okay. So here is here's. I have to define toxic work environment, because a toxic work environment in an office is radically different than a toxic work environment in a construction site. I have a client that, let me tell you, when I'm going to see these guys at the construction site, I'm like, wow, I didn't hear that in the Marine Corps, right, but they get along. That is their environment. To me, a toxic work environment is only defined if the environment in which everybody thrives don't thrive. That's what a talk, what a talk to a toxic work environment, for one place is very different than another. So let's talk about a work environment.
Ricky Baez:If you have a manager that's constantly yelling, you have a manager constantly putting people down. It doesn't have to be a manager, it could be an employee, it could be a coworker, where you go home at night and your chest is hurting. I've had that happen, pete. I've had that happen a long time ago. I come home I was in my early 30s and I'm like, am I really about to have a heart attack? And it wasn't because of the taco I had earlier, it's because of what's happening at work. It's that's if you, if your mental health is suffering, if your relationship and home is suffering because of what's happening at work. It is definitely time to jump ship, definitely.
Pete Newsome:It's. This is also very personal and subjective, to say the least. You have the definition of toxic work environment. We could talk for hours about that, because what I consider to be normal work environment today in many cases is it would be labeled toxic by a lot of people. Also, it's beginning football season, which means hard knocks is on TV. They're doing the Green Bay Jets. Green Bay Jets oh my God. Aaron Rodgers of the Green Bay Packers is now a jet a New York jet, of course and if you watch that show, they're using language or talking to each other in a way that to your point earlier about the constructions, I would not apply and be okay in a regular office environment and that's okay there, and no one's getting upset, right, everyone's expecting it.
Pete Newsome:It's part of the culture. So I struggle with this defining it. I don't want to try to define it because it's just such a personal thing, but, like you said, if your job is affecting you outside of the office mentally, emotionally, physically then it's a bad situation for you. Whether it's a bad situation, I think that's what I want to separate Just because it's bad for you doesn't mean it's bad, and that is probably more a societal scenario that we have going on right now where just because something doesn't work out, it doesn't mean someone was in the wrong Right, it doesn't mean you have to blame. Don't blame your employer for being who they are and that's great. Well, I mean, it's true and I've experienced that. I experienced on Glassdoor a former employee in one of our offices in another city. We don't have any more. They made us work these hours and they constantly were trying to get us to produce. Literally.
Ricky Baez:The complaint on Glassdoor was our job description, effectively, and I'm like I love it, and that's just more about the author than anything else, right?
Pete Newsome:But it was the takeaway from that and it's no fun getting those kind of reviews, even as unwarranted as it might be, because that's the reality of that individual and that's okay for them. They should move on. But it doesn't mean the situation was bad. So just know that. And I'll just use this as an opportunity to say, if you do depart, because for those reasons right, and I've been there too I've been in a situation where I dreaded going into work on Monday yes, that is something to move on from. That's right.
Pete Newsome:It doesn't mean with the one situation that I come up with. It's happened to me once in my career, really, really blatantly. I inherited a manager, which is usually when these things kind of happen not someone that hired me, not someone I agreed to go work for, just situationally, as I moved within the organization. This person came in, was hired above me Not a good fit, not a good fit and I for years was blame the individual right. But then I realized it was my fault, even though I thought I knew better at the time and perhaps I did. This person was in charge. My job, reporting to them, was to make sure they were happy with my performance. I chose to take a different approach and so it became toxic. By any. Definitely it was an awful relationship, but I was. I still have to take responsibility for it, and so the day I left I didn't feel that way. For a year after I didn't feel that way. It's been a long time.
Pete Newsome:And I could look back and go. I get it. That was me Right, and so I've been better on the other side of it. But just know that if you're in a bad situation you should consider moving on if it's really affecting you outside of work.
Ricky Baez:Can I say something real quick about that, because you said something really important that I want the audience to really hone in on. Folks, did you realize what he just said? Self reflection. That's important in these situations. In these situations, if you're not jiving with somebody, if you're not, if you're not really really you know being efficient or working with somebody, take a step back. And I'm not being funny here, are you the problem? It's the problem. You try to check those boxes out first before you keep approaching it. Right For you, pete. It took a long time To me. Sometimes I noticed it in an instant. Sometimes I noticed it five years later right, but it was me right.
Ricky Baez:So that I just don't want to move on from this particular piece without saying you have to take a self reflection and see if you are adding to this issue and if you remove yourself or things going to be instantly be better. You posted something the other day that was really profound and I'm surprised it didn't get as many traction as it did. You said something to the effect Could you imagine, just for the slightest second, if you're the one that's wrong? How did that quote go? You put it out there and it was perfect. You put it on.
Pete Newsome:It was because it was on Twitter, where, you know, I don't have a lot of interaction, but it was a conversation I had with my kids. We all are quick to judge. I think whether we try to be your, some are better than others. Right, I'm at times quick to judge, so it could be something like you know, you're in traffic and you perceive that someone cuts you off and you're upset at that individual. They have their own perspective on that right, and if you just assume that you're right always, I think that's a dangerous path to go down. And if you just apply that in every scenario, hey, what if I'm wrong? Let me consider the possibility that I'm the one not wrong about hey, this is blue or green, or there's four of those, clearly not two. What if I'm in the wrong? What if my perspective is skewed on this one and I'm being unjust in the way I'm looking at this situation? Just think how everything would be different, right?
Pete Newsome:More people need to do that I mean I certainly need to do it, and so it's one of those things where I said it to my kids. I'm like, well, I better, they're looking at me, so I need to try to do that too. So that was where it came from.
Ricky Baez:Excellent. I mean I thought I thought it was. It was perfect. I'm like right, we're so up to show our position, we don't take a step back, Even think about if we're the ones adding fuel to the fire. So I just thought it was good.
Pete Newsome:And this is some are much better than others at doing it in the moment, and especially with something like work. I mean, everyone goes into a new career opportunity, hopeful and expecting that it's going to be good. Right, the honeymoon period, if you will. And why am I on like this relationship kick today, everything's about real.
Pete Newsome:Because it is right it is. It's where you spend your waking hours. The relationship you have with your employer and employees is an intimate one in many cases. Right, you're so tied together, but we all want it to work out on the front end, but the odds show that it's not going to ultimately work out right, you leave every job except one. That's the definitive truth, just like a relationship, every relationship you're in is going to end except for one. And so if you go into that just not looking to, or you leave not looking to blame but to learn, that is the healthy way to do it. But so hard in the moment, that's right. So hard, it's really easy to look back. Right, it's easy to sit behind a microphone and say it when having to be accountable to anyone or anything, and you're not having to back it up.
Ricky Baez:But speaking of which, I have an issue with something on this list. Right, because let's say all these things are happening, let's say your job is not being recognized, it's a toxic work environment. If you made a constant decision, you know what I need to leave, right? One of the things on here that I think you and I might disagree on if you make sure you leave the job at the right time, because you have to know when to leave depends how bad things are and you just say I'm going to leave, there's a point here that says don't leave without another opportunity lined up. I don't know if that's true today, as it was 10 years ago, because right now, pete, if I'm upset at something right, and I'm like you know what, I don't have time to interview. Let me just leave, and you and I have talked about this before.
Ricky Baez:I can make $600 this weekend easily on Uber Lift all these things to carry me over until I have another job. But I think people right now have an out before having something else lined up to hold them through, and the reason I'm big on this is I talk to every Lyft or Uber driver that I take and I travel quite a bit. I just got back from Puerto Rico on Monday night and I was talking to the Uber driver and he's a perfect example guy from Venezuela, being here for 20 years. He hated his job, he quit, he's trying to find something else and he's doing this. In the meantime, he makes almost 80% doing Uber than what he was making. That is real job, so he's just taking a 20% cut for him to find some sanity. What do you say about that?
Pete Newsome:So I would. I would say that universally is not something I would recommend, but also these individuals who go into that gig work that is, having a plan and something to go to. So I just want to verify that. Okay, where the plan may not be that next great job lined up, the career move that you hope is indefinite, right, that offers everything you're looking for, but they still sound like they had a plan, versus quitting out of emotion and not knowing what's coming next.
Pete Newsome:I don't support that because there's so many factors beyond your control. You really need to know your marketability and what your options are, and there's a lot of people looking for a job right now, more so than there has been since during COVID. But I don't even that was such an abnormal time in the job market. You almost can put that aside. Right, we know that was just not a normal situation. But if I look back on how things I'm going to say feel right now, compared to the 25 years I've been paying attention to these things, it doesn't feel good right now to be unemployed. It doesn't feel good right now to be. I don't think this is a great time to be on the market. There are things you can do to increase the odds in your favor. Different show We've talked about that, but leaving without a plan.
Ricky Baez:Proceed with God. It's scary, I get it. It's scary. Sometimes people do that. I've had employees that they left just because they wanted that extra, which didn't make sense, to be honest. Now, this is before Uber. I had an employee come to me and say she was really frustrated because she cannot get promoted to the next stop, and I told her I'm like, well, that's mine All right, unless I quit, get hit by a bus or hit the lotto. That's not going to happen. I get fired. That's not going to happen, right. But then she just said you know what? Then I'm just going to go get something else. And so, do you have something else locked on? Because she was a good employee, she was really good. I'm like do you have something else because I can help her? No, and she just left. That never made sense to me. It's because she was concerned or complaining because she could not get a promotion and go to the next step, and her answer to that is go to $0 an hour.
Pete Newsome:Yeah Well, I think it's hard to find a. If you conduct a job search properly, it can be a full-time job If you do it thoroughly. It can take a lot of time and effort, but once again, there's ways to circumvent that. There's ways to shortcut that Working with third-party staffing companies, making sure your digital presence is maximized. There's so many things you can do while you're still employed. But there's other scenarios that exist where it's just impractical to fully look for the right job if you're depending on the hours you work in the situation. So everything is so unique. But have a plan, think it out, don't go ready, fire aim in that scenario.
Ricky Baez:Tom Peters. Right, that's Tom Peters, that's his. The great author, ready fire aim. I actually like that.
Pete Newsome:It's just. That's not how you should approach your career. I agree Especially when what we're talking about is you've decided that you need to make a move because the situation you're in is not aligned with your goals, is not leading towards your goals, and whatever those may be, so personal and unique, but don't act out of emotion. Don't act.
Ricky Baez:Well, maybe. Well, hold on now, because you're saying don't act out of emotion. But what if your instinct tells you you should leave? Shouldn't you trust your instincts?
Pete Newsome:Well, we'll quantify that right. What does that mean?
Ricky Baez:Okay, all right, I show up to work today. I see my boss. I'm like God. I can't stand that guy. I'm done, I'm going to leave. Right, something tells me in my stomach I need to leave today.
Pete Newsome:I need to resign today. That makes no sense to me, right? You just have a feeling today is the day, that's okay, good luck. I mean, one of the lists here says trust your instincts. Trust your instincts, sure, but don't. That doesn't mean you act immediately, right, those are. Separate those, just because, like, your instinct may be telling you that you need to make a move. So my recommendation there is understand where that's coming from, right? That doesn't just. Is it a bad vibe? Can you put your arms around why you're feeling that way? Deal with that first. But let's say you can't, right, let's say you're like I can't articulate why I feel this way. I just do when. It's not going away, it's growing because we all have bad days. By the way, I mean your scenario. I know you're just throwing it out there, but I walk in this morning and I go. I don't like the look of my boss. I'm leaving, right.
Ricky Baez:Don't do that. You're a Star Trek fan.
Pete Newsome:No, don't do that. We all have bad situations. Assess it, you know. Step back for a moment. Don't act on emotion in that scenario. So I'm going to double down on what I said. But if you, if the feeling is not going away, even if you don't, you don't have to justify it to anyone else. It's personal. Put together a plan on what happens next. Don't play with this loosely. Depending on the obligations that you have, the responsibilities that you're committed to other people you're accountable for. Whatever it might be right, there's a very big difference in a you know, someone who's in a, who doesn't have many bills to pay or is independently wealthy, versus someone who is a sole provider for a family and lives paycheck to paycheck. Sometimes you have to suck it up because of your personal situation. You are responsible for your own results ultimately, and so I caution the hey act on emotion.
Ricky Baez:So that's where I was trying to get to, because your instincts would tell you if the job is not right for you, but it should not be the indicator for you to jump ship. That just means start planning. Start planning because right now, if you said right now I'm not, you know, I can't stand this job, I'm going to jump ship. Not a good time. The market is not great right now. Do you know how many people are out there right now involuntarily looking for a job because of layoffs? Consider the job market. So what this means is have a strategy, have a plan and know when to strike and let your employer give you employer some time. Don't just show up one day and say I'm leaving today, I'm going to give you my two minute notice. That's never going to go well.
Pete Newsome:We've talked about that a lot right now. We have.
Ricky Baez:Just give them enough time, at least two weeks, right? Depending on your position. I'm talking to somebody right now and this person a bit for this organization for 25 years. And this person I'm talking to right now, she is in a really bad spot because if she leaves right now, the organization goes under. And I told her you give them a three month notice, three months, and let them know by this day I'm gone. Now she can say that right, because they're not going to fire her. They need her, right, but that's plenty of time for the organization to set up a contingency plan for when she leaves.
Pete Newsome:Now, Ricky, people will hear that and say the employer doesn't deserve that. Why should you do that for them?
Ricky Baez:Well, you know I can understand why people say that, because if you was to, west of Fame is saying, if he was to die, your position will be opposed to before your obituary, will? I mean? That's true? I mean it will be naive of me to think that the organization is going to wait three months, right, for me, after my death that's not going to happen, right? But here's what I'm telling you. The organization may not deserve it, but your business partners do, the people you work with, do the boss who you get along with, do they deserve it? Forget the organization. Focus on the people who you've worked with for the past 25 years who deserve that kind of time. That's what you want to focus on.
Pete Newsome:That's a good way to put it. I like that, and these are things that you're not going to see. There's no guidebook on that. It just comes down to doing the right thing, so that's an area where you should trust your instinct. You know, in particular, right, does this feel right?
Ricky Baez:Yeah, and now, now again, I told her three months just because of her position a regular position, two weeks, give them two weeks, guys, let them know, right, even if you don't think they deserve it, that's fine. You got some people out there who don't deserve to go through all that turmoil because you decided to jump ship early.
Pete Newsome:Yes.
Ricky Baez:And that's what you got to think about.
Pete Newsome:So that's a great point, so, but there's what about reasons not to leave? Let's knock out some of these real quick before we wrap up.
Ricky Baez:Oh, I'll tell you that I can see it is right now. If you have an amazing boss, if you have an amazing team, if you have an amazing business partners, you're not going to leave. I'm an example of that, pete. I'm an example. I worked at Sears Home Improvement, for I thought I was going to work there for six months. I worked there for seven years. Why that three, three legacy stool was real. My boss was awesome. My I had an amazing team and business partners who really cared about HR and they really listen.
Ricky Baez:I stayed there for seven years, getting paid 30% less of what I was worth and the reason I was OK with that a I live below my means and B I value that work environment more than 30% more on my paycheck. Now I'm at a place in my career where I can't do that. I understand there's some people, exactly how you said earlier, who live paycheck to paycheck to the sole breadwinner of their family, who, as much as they want to do that, they cannot do that. So I understand that it depends on what you value. So if what you value is alive and well in that organization, that is a great reason to stay Right. It depends on what you value in life. You value flexibility. You're getting it. Stay Right. You value great relationship with your people. Stay Right.
Pete Newsome:Well, and we know that bad things will happen eventually in every situation. If you're there for seven years, it's not all going to be rosy, we know that. So don't leave just because you make a mistake. In fact, I think that's a reason to stay and prove that you can get on the other side of that Right. Don't leave because you were passed over for a promotion Right Same thing. Use that as an opportunity. It hurts, though there's a reason it hurts.
Pete Newsome:Yeah, it's not fun, but why? Why did that happen? Ask the question, no reflection. Because, well, ricky Jane was a better farmer than you were, right, yeah? She's a star trek fan and then you decide whether you can overcome that. But don't leave just because bad things happen or something comes up once, right? Or because you have to. It's going to happen, it's inevitable, yeah.
Ricky Baez:It's. You know the best way. You know what's the best way to decide whether you have a great organization to work with. If you see it about to hit the fan and you know you've got some turmoil coming down the the pike that you have no worries. The people you get to your left or to your right, you have no worries. You're going to come over good on the other side with the folks you got. That's when you know you should stay Right.
Ricky Baez:Everything's golden when it's nice and peachy. The true colors come out when things do not go according to plan. The true colors come out when the organization has a bumpy route and the organization, the team that sticks together in that process, just do it. You know, when you got people who served in the military, they see a lot of nasty stuff together. Then they come out. They have a better relationship with each other than the people that they grew up with. Right, because people who go through misery, people who go through all those hard times together, that builds bonds and it builds relationships. Let me tell you I've gone a lot through it in other situations and it builds bonds.
Pete Newsome:That's what's going on, much more so than when things are just easy and good. When things are going well, it seems easy. So at that point too, if you are criticized by your boss, that's not a reason to feel compelled to leave. Now, there's extremes to this. Criticism is necessary and valuable. That's how you evolve and improve. Would you rather be in a situation where you're never going to be promoted, you're not valued enough very much in the organization because you're consistently doing something wrong that you don't know was wrong, versus your manager saying hey, ricky, this is what you're not doing correctly.
Pete Newsome:Here's a way to improve it. Here's a path to gain power. Here's a path to gain past it. Of course you want to be armed with that. Now, the way I presented it right in this moment seems different than reality, maybe because that message sometimes could be shared in a not-so-kind way. You consider that too, but you need feedback in order to grow on a wall. The person willing to give it is usually someone who has your best interest. They may have their own interest in mine too. That's okay. That's the nature of the employee-employee relationship. But they're telling you for your own benefit as well, because the alternative is not helping.
Ricky Baez:What's more important than giving feedback? Receiving it. You have to be able to receive it right. And you know what? If you receive feedback, sometimes it's going to be great, that's awesome. What you really need to pay attention is how you're going to react when it's not good feedback. Right, because you're right, the reason you're getting feedback. If the person did not care about you, they're not going to give you the feedback. If they care about your performance at work, and obviously if the person reports to you, then their neck is on the line as well, right, so they have an incentive to give you some constructive feedback.
Ricky Baez:Folks, you have to be able to take the feedback. You're not perfect. Your boss isn't perfect as much as he or she tries to look like one. You have to be able to take that feedback. Take it with stride. And here's the thing Even if it's feedback you don't deserve, don't get emotional with it. As for clarification, there could be a complete misunderstanding on the objectives, but sometimes people go off on tangents and pay feedback they don't understand instead of asking for clarification. So open those lines of communication.
Pete Newsome:There's a scenario that comes to mind when you say that with an employee a current employee, so I'm not going to share too many details who received feedback that was unfounded, by someone who was no longer associated with our organization. It was off base, but at the time it was meaningful, it was the reality of the moment the feedback and the employee who received the feedback said I don't get this, I don't think this is warranted.
Pete Newsome:I think you know what I'm talking about and I was sort of independent of it. I was involved, but not directly, and what I said was then prove that right, overcome it. Don't take it. You have to absorb it for what it is Now. Go prove that it was wrong. Very few people do that. I think it is really hard to do.
Pete Newsome:This was an intense situation. It turned out to be the best thing. I wish it hadn't happened, of course, but I would make a case that it made this individual so much better and should be so much more confident on the other side of it and prove to be. The other person was blatantly wrong and it was just. It was a very good ending to a scenario. So absorb it, learn from it and then grow and improve, whatever that means. And then if you decide after doing that, you conclude that it's not going to matter, that the feedback is just never going to improve, that you're never going to be treated fairly, then you have to make your own decision right. But on the surface, feedback tells you where you stand and gives you the opportunity to do something about it. It's very valuable.
Ricky Baez:Everybody listening to this right now. Just digest what Peach has said. Right, if you are given feedback that you do not agree with, do not get defensive. Ask for clarification. Help me understand why we came to that conclusion because you want to be inquisitive, not defensive? Okay, if you become defensive, it takes the conversation to a completely different place. There's a good chance. The boss is wrong. There's also a good chance the boss is right. This is the time to have a conversation, and when your boss tells you you know what? Okay, I wasn't there, prove them wrong. Take that opportunity as the look. You're right on the goal line, the game is almost over. You got to cross it, that touchdown and the game is over. That's what you need to do. Take that information and improve from Ron Because, look, in this situation, pete, aren't you glad that happened now? Right, because he was able to get more clarification from that person, or no?
Pete Newsome:I yes and no, because the yes is on the other side of it. I'm glad how it ended up, but I wish I hadn't let it happen in the first place. Got it, I got it, but it was because it was firsthand involved. I had to let it play out to some degree. So again, I don't want to share too many details of it, but I'm certainly thankful that it ended up the way it did. So the right person won.
Ricky Baez:So all this is happening, Pete? All this is happening. I hate my boss, I hate my job. You're telling me I need a plan. I shouldn't just trust my instinct and quit right away, but you're telling me to have a plan. What does that plan look like?
Pete Newsome:So you need to know what's coming on the other side right as best you can. So how do we do that while you're employed? Well, it starts with updating your resume. That's a given. Make sure you're active on LinkedIn. That's the place where recruiters find people, so go there. I always think of it as a free resume that you can post without having to look over your shoulder that your employer is going to see it, but also where you can post online. Sign up for email alerts. You can go to our sister website, zengigcom and sign up for email alerts. It will be emailed to your inbox every day of new jobs that match what you're looking for.
Pete Newsome:Certifications, continued learning you can do all of those things to improve yourself. So there's short term plans and long term plans. You can hire a career coach. That is a potentially valuable thing to do. Get in touch with staffing companies who work in your industry, in your market, in your specialty, whatever it might be. So there's a lot of things that you can do. We have, of course, no shortage of blogs and articles on that, so check them out. We'll link them in the show notes. But it's all about taking action, action, action, action. Don't sit back and wait. Be proactive, take ownership of your own career and your success.
Ricky Baez:And folks, it's good that you have an advocate in your corner, but never rely on an advocate in your corner. You should always, always be ready to advocate for yourself. You should always be ready to to toot your own horn. This is the part that I get from my students a lot, pete right that they're afraid they seem like a feasting to an ego. They might be egotistic if they talk too much about themselves, and I'd say that's a great concern to have. But the alternative, the byproduct of that, is so much more valuable than what you're afraid of. Absolutely Just continue to do it. Continue to do it. That's like saying you know, I don't want to, I don't want to work out and be healthy, right, and live longer, because you know, planet Fitness gives free pizza every Tuesday. That's true, by the way. So so I mean it just doesn't make sense, right? That's a byproduct, right? I see you smiling. You've been to Planet Fitness on Tuesday.
Pete Newsome:I just know of no, I haven't. But I know, I know that's their gimmick.
Ricky Baez:So it's such a weird gimmick, Anyway. So that's what you need to do, folks. Do not be afraid to toot your own horn. Now, if you're starting to ask for feedback, this is when you should self reflect and ask for feedback. Train is train yourself. Record yourself, right. Giving that 30 second elevated speech, right, See, see how you come across. Give it to your friends and family and see how you know what they tell you. Now, this was controversial, so follow me here, Pete. Give it to people who you generally don't like.
Ricky Baez:Give what Give the recording to people who you generally don't like.
Pete Newsome:Okay, all right.
Ricky Baez:Here's why. Here's why. Here's why yes, they're going to dial it up to attend, but there's going to be some truth in there that your mom is not going to give you and your spouse is not going to give you, but the person who doesn't like you is going to give you. I've done that before. It has worked wonders, because I've gotten some great feedback inadvertently that I did not get from my own friends or family.
Pete Newsome:All right, well, that I would, yeah, you would, I would expect that. So, if you really want, if you really want the truth, go.
Ricky Baez:If you really want your feelings hurt, people would only cry with a half gallon of ice cream in the public. Yeah, try that.
Pete Newsome:All right. So, with that in mind, I think we have a, we have a plan. So, yeah, we do lots of things to consider when making a decision to leave, and then what comes on the other side of that's just as important. So, Ricky, I think we've done it. We beat the horse.
Ricky Baez:This poor horse. Pete is going to call us. Pete, yeah, probably going to call us. We keep saying that too much. We had those horses out there. We've beaten the topic.
Pete Newsome:Al right. Well, everyone thanks for listening. Drive safe. Have a great rest of your day, Ricky. Goodbye for now.
Ricky Baez:Have a good one, have an amazing weekend. See you next week.